Pro Max 300--Should I Simonize or replace with 300XS??

[SpeedDemon]

Hey Folks,

I'm trying to decide whether to Simonize my 250+ hour PM300 or trade up to a 300XS Opti. Boat is a '99 DCB Mach 22, runs about 80-85 with the PM, but it takes a while to get there. The motor just feels sluggish, especially out of the hole.

I talked to Eric Simon last year, and I'm definitely hot on his 335HP powerhead. But now I'm looking at the 300XS and wondering if thats the way to go.

Can anyone give me an idea of the hours between overhauls on the two motors? Also, when it comes to fuel consumption, is the difference going to pay for the Opti?

Way I figure, if I run 200 hours per year, at an average of 12 GPH with the PM, at $3.25/gal for 93 octane and oil, thats ~$7800 per season in fuel. If I cut that to an average of 7 gallons per hour, thats $4550 per season, a savings of $3250 per season. By that calculation, I would say its safe to say that the Opti will actually pay for itself in 3-4 years just in fuel.

I'm sure that the Simonized 300 will outperform the 300xs, but is the difference in operating costs worth it?

Thanks for any advice.
Speeddemon

[Rusrog]

I'm sure that the Simonized 300 will outperform the 300xs, but is the difference in operating costs worth it?

Thanks for any advice.
Speeddemon

I'm sorry... I guess I don't understand the question...

Russ

[SpeedDemon]

Sorry Russ, that was a little vague...the question is do you think the fun factor on the Simon 335 powerhead is going to be worth the ultimately higher cost?

Second, how many hours between overhauls are people getting/expecting with the 300XS versus the ~300 hours on a PM300 or the Simon 335?

Thanks,
Brett

[Fl Boy in ILL]

The 300XS is great with fuel compaired to the PM, it is hard to beat a NEW motor especially if you are getting BRAND NEW, warrenty. Might not be as fast as a Simon motor but that whats fun about this hobby, decisions decisions, decisions!!!!!

Rick

[SpeedDemon]

Yeah Rick yer right....its tough deciding how to blow thousands of bucks senselessly! :D

My friends, who mostly run Bagel Barges, cant fathom that I would spend $8k for 50 more horsepower....wait til I scare the chit out of them this summer. :eek:

Also, I'm a little worried about who around here would work on a Simon motor. The marina guys around here (PA) think my stock PM300 is scary, they are used to working on I/O's and 40 HP four-strokes on the pontoon boats.

Speedemon

[Frank Molé]

Sorry Russ, that was a little vague...the question is do you think the fun factor on the Simon 335 powerhead is going to be worth the ultimately higher cost?

Second, how many hours between overhauls are people getting/expecting with the 300XS versus the ~300 hours on a PM300 or the Simon 335?

Thanks,
Brett
speed demon:confused: :confused: :confused:

[jerry]

300xs...............................

[SpeedDemon]

speed demon:confused: :confused: :confused:

What you don't like my name?

[Da Bull]

One thing to remember, The new 300xs is a green motor and as such you cannot monkey with it at all. It is what it is and you can`t make it any better by law. Just something to consider.

DB

[beer30]

A law was passed that you can not touch any outboard engine( modify it) that was made in 98 or later. So the 300 PRO MAX and the 300X would fall into that law also.;) Chuck

[1BadAction]

One thing to remember, The new 300xs is a green motor and as such you cannot monkey with it at all. It is what it is and you can`t make it any better by law. Just something to consider.

DB

by law you cant touch any OB after 1998. I dont think most people care about the law. they havent for the past 8 years...

[barr151]

Great, can’t touch the motor…… What are you going to say next “we can’t go over the suggested H.P. rating on the hulls”. :)

[Blue Stream]

If it were me, I would get the Simon. His Motors are Bad to the Bone! I think you would be happier with the speed anyway.

[1BadAction]

Boat is a '99 DCB Mach 22, runs about 80-85 with the PM, but it takes a while to get there. The motor just feels sluggish, especially out of the hole.

+1.......

[Propster]

If it were me, I would go with the XS. If you are into little or no smoke, better dock manners, noise reduction, double fuel economy (low to midrange), same hp and a warrantee. I like big speed with no drama. If you need more speed, possibly close to 100, the Simon option might be better.

I would like to repower my Cougar with the XS's when I can. Pretty spendy for twins though. Currently, I have 2.5 carb motors. Fast, but too high strung around the docks (smoky and hard shifting). I love outboards, but I would sure like to cut down on the smoke.

[merctech5591]

i had to make the same choice 4 months ago, stay with the 300x or trade up to the 300xs.. i made the choice to go with the xs and been very happy with it. i have not seen any performance loss and have greatly improved on my fuel economy..in my opinion i would go with the xs hand's down..

[SpeedDemon]

If it were me, I would get the Simon. His Motors are Bad to the Bone! I think you would be happier with the speed anyway.

I hear you Blue Stream, thats whats killing me!! I saw the videos on Simons website, that chit is BADASS!! On the other hand, I don't work on motors, I want to turn the key and have it run, and the longevity of the Opti and the increased economy are practical pluses.

Can anyone give me an idea, like on a scale of 1 to 10, what the fun (ie power and response) factor of these three motors would be?

Right now I'm seeing about 85mph, maybe with the 300xs I'd see 90, do you think I might see 100 with Simons motor? If I could hit the century mark I don't think I could help but go with the Simon motor (Simon, if your watching this do you think thats possible?)

Fact is, even 85 gets kinda boring in the DCB in the smooth stuff. That hull is incredibly stable. I used to run a Vegas XT and that thing was a scream at 85, but you could n't fly over the rough like the DCB. The chicks were scared of the Vegas!! :p

Brett

PS another thing I've thought of is I'd honestly rather give my money to Simon than Merc....

[SpeedDemon]

If it were me, I would go with the XS. If you are into little or no smoke, better dock manners, noise reduction, double fuel economy (low to midrange), same hp and a warrantee. I like big speed with no drama. If you need more speed, possibly close to 100, the Simon option might be better.

I would like to repower my Cougar with the XS's when I can. Pretty spendy for twins though. Currently, I have 2.5 carb motors. Fast, but too high strung around the docks (smoky and hard shifting). I love outboards, but I would sure like to cut down on the smoke.

Damn, I really want to go 100....Propster now you've got me thinking....

Speeddemon

[SpeedDemon]

Does anyone know what kind of RPM's a Simon 335 will turn?

thanks,
Brett

[Simon]

brett, You have a tough decision on your hands. The 300xs is a very good running motor and it makes a ton of torque. You need torque to push that boat. The motor that you have now is a VERY LAZY running motor. One of my motors will run faster than a 300xs but it will use more fuel. Do you want fuel economy or do you want to go fast? I give a one year warranty with the motor and offer another year extended. At the moment I do not know exactly how much faster my 335hp motor is compared to a 300xs because everyone is still working on the 300xs setup. you are welcome to call and I can go over some options. 760-440-9334 Thanks, Eric

[Blue Stream]

If this doesn't answer your Q's then I don't know what to tell ya.

Look at these Monsters!! They are just SICK! I want one on my Triad.


http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120713

[SpeedDemon]

Ph*ckit ya only live once. I didn't buy the thing to be fuel efficient in the first place. Maybe someday if I move up to a twin I'll get the XS motors. Fact is, on the Mach 22 with a single I need all the power I can get. Simon, I'm going to give you a buzz shortly.

Thanks,
Brett

[Blue Stream]

Good Man. Keep us posted when she is up and running.:D

[THE HOGG]

GO SIMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE BAD TO THE BONE AND YOU WILL LOVE IT!! AND WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT THE LOCAL MECHANICS KNOW ABOUT IT, I CANT TEAR MINE UP.... AND IM TRYIN MY DAMNDEST!! I MESSED UP AND DIDNT PUT AN HOUR METER ON IT BUT I HAVE RIGHT AT 18 GALLONS OF OIL THROUGH IT THIS YEAR INCLUDING BREAK-IN. I THINK ERIC MISSED THE RPM QUESTION,ITS LIMITED AT 7100. BESIDES ALL OF THAT, THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!! ID POST A PIC IF I COULD RUN THIS DAMN THING:eek:

[SpeedDemon]

GO SIMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THEY ARE BAD TO THE BONE AND YOU WILL LOVE IT!! AND WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT THE LOCAL MECHANICS KNOW ABOUT IT, I CANT TEAR MINE UP.... AND IM TRYIN MY DAMNDEST!! I MESSED UP AND DIDNT PUT AN HOUR METER ON IT BUT I HAVE RIGHT AT 18 GALLONS OF OIL THROUGH IT THIS YEAR INCLUDING BREAK-IN. I THINK ERIC MISSED THE RPM QUESTION,ITS LIMITED AT 7100. BESIDES ALL OF THAT, THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!! ID POST A PIC IF I COULD RUN THIS DAMN THING:eek:

Yeah I just got off the phone with Simon, great guy he was very helpful as usual(I've bought parts from him before). I gotta have this thing...plus the sound! Those video's on his website of the Talon25 are unbelievable. Guess I'm gonna have to fork up the $$$$:eek: As I said you only live once.

Speeddemon

[Blue Stream]

It is Half the price of a 300XS, you already have the block for him!!:D

[SpeedDemon]

It is Half the price of a 300XS, you already have the block for him!!:D

Yeah....Eric said that this is a good way to go I shouldn't have to reprop or anything. I was running the slip calculator I'm hoping that I might see 95MPH with this setup. I'm going to send him my Bravo 1 28 Lab that needs to be worked a little, somehow last year the blades got a couple of little bends in the trailing edges....hes got a guy that can work it for my setup. :D I'm so excited...I wish it would warm up.

Speeddemon

[THE HOGG]

You Wont Regret It.. I Love Mine, And If I Can Keep A Gearcase Together I Should Get My Pig Vegas Xt To 100mph This Summer.. Its Realllll Close Already:d

[racer]

200 hours a year, I wish I could get 50 a year in.

[Skatin]

I haven't had 1 problem with my Simon motors at all. They idle good and you can't compare the lazy stock pm 300 to these. The XS will add more weight to the back of the boat also. "If you can find one". BE WISE AND SIMONIZE!!!!!!!!

[SpeedDemon]

I haven't had 1 problem with my Simon motors at all. They idle good and you can't compare the lazy stock pm 300 to these. The XS will add more weight to the back of the boat also. "If you can find one". BE WISE AND SIMONIZE!!!!!!!!

Skatin what kinds of top speeds are ya seein?

Speedemon

[THE HOGG]

Look At His Signature. 116mph. I Think His Boat Is On Simons Site.

[Skatin]

[QUOTE=SpeedDemon]Skatin what kinds of top speeds are ya seein?

Should be over 120 this year...

[SpeedDemon]

Dannnngggggg....thats fast alright....

[stylishskier]

just playing devils advocate here, simon makes a great motor from the sounds of things, but how much performance gain does it see over a stock 300X? If merctech runs his XS setup at/near the performance that a 300x was running and if a simon doesnt put out the propshaft power and torque a 300x/xs does, then how can you say the simon is faster? What is the xs limited at? isnt it 6800 or 6400 I can't remember... simon is cheaper overall and may have a bit more performance, personally if money wasn't an issue I'd prolly go with the XS, just my thoughts based on mercs real life tests on his liberator...

[scott reierson]

If ya really think your gonna do it, Heres what I do.

I call the engine builder to find a guy whos got the motor I'm considering on a boat thats close to mine or on a boat I'm considering.

I setup a ride and pay for gas, etc. I'm nice and tell them why I'm doing it.

I get a room, buy a plane ticket or drive to a guy whos got the rig. I go for a real deal spin to check it out. I've done it more than I care to admit. But I learn alot.

I figure If I'm gonna stick $5-$100K in outboard motors and boats, I wanna good idea of what I'm getting into.

Works for me and I meet alot of nice people. More importantly, it allows me to make the correct decisions.

Hopefully, knowone feels like they are getting dicked around and they are compensated for the time.

Oh yea, then I really do buy it.

[DCBDaytona]

Go Simonized! Eric is a great guy and knows the Mach 22's quite well.;)

Mach 22's are a wet riding boat...the 335 is a MUCH better way to go. Not to break your heart, but you're not going to see 100mph with the 335 though.

[TUNNEL T]

s.d rumor has it there are some ski race peeps working with comp mods for the xs's , i'm completely happy with mine (f-26 with two xs's ) but i keep running outa prop ! FUEL IS AWESOME COMPARED TOO ALL MY OTHER MOTORS .
98 300 pm (svs flywheel,tuner shaved heads ,rapair comps)
05 280 ros (snappiest motor of all )
01 280 sport ( stock )


TUNNEL T

[Skatin]

s.d rumor has it there are some ski race peeps working with comp mods for the xs's , i'm completely happy with mine (f-26 with two xs's ) but i keep running outa prop ! FUEL IS AWESOME COMPARED TOO ALL MY OTHER MOTORS .
98 300 pm (svs flywheel,tuner shaved heads ,rapair comps)
05 280 ros (snappiest motor of all )
01 280 sport ( stock )


TUNNEL T
You left out the most important thing...Speeds with each motors.....

[TUNNEL T]

You left out the most important thing...Speeds with each motors.....
THESE MOTORS WERE ON MY OLD BOAT !!!!20.2 lavey tunnel spinning only one prop 28 pitch dr4 spinnelli!!!!!
300 pm 97and some change
05 ros 100 at only 7900 (ran outa moonlight )
280 sport 97

[WILDMAN]

I ran one of my 18 Liberators last week with a 98 Promax. I ran pretty hard, 90-100+ most of the time. I got exactly 2 mpg with a 32 cleaver and a 1.62 gear. At the river ranch last Nov., I ran 84 miles[at least 60 were over 90mph] in a 21 Liberator with a 300xs and a 28" prop and a 1.62 gear, on 19 gallons. That's almost 4.5 mpg, running HARD, on a bigger boat, with a smaller prop. At cruise speed{50mph} I got right at 6mpg. The same 18 last year got 2.3 at cruise speed. Even if the price of gas does'nt matter, it sucks running out of 93 octane on a lake that does'nt sell it. If you take what you can sell your motor for now, and what your new powerhead cost, you could buy a new 300xs.
Just my opinion, based on fact. Also, Merctech got almost 7 mpg with that 300xs on his Quartershot.

[SpeedDemon]

Go Simonized! Eric is a great guy and knows the Mach 22's quite well.;)

Mach 22's are a wet riding boat...the 335 is a MUCH better way to go. Not to break your heart, but you're not going to see 100mph with the 335 though.


Daytona what is your rig, I see in your pic a boat that looks kinda like mine ;-)

What exactly is your reason that you think the 335 is the better way to go...What kinds of top speeds do you think I'll see with the 335 vs. the 300XS. What is your setup on your boat?

THanks!
Speeddemon

[SpeedDemon]

I ran one of my 18 Liberators last week with a 98 Promax. I ran pretty hard, 90-100+ most of the time. I got exactly 2 mpg with a 32 cleaver and a 1.62 gear. At the river ranch last Nov., I ran 84 miles[at least 60 were over 90mph] in a 21 Liberator with a 300xs and a 28" prop and a 1.62 gear, on 19 gallons. That's almost 4.5 mpg, running HARD, on a bigger boat, with a smaller prop. At cruise speed{50mph} I got right at 6mpg. The same 18 last year got 2.3 at cruise speed. Even if the price of gas does'nt matter, it sucks running out of 93 octane on a lake that does'nt sell it. If you take what you can sell your motor for now, and what your new powerhead cost, you could buy a new 300xs.
Just my opinion, based on fact. Also, Merctech got almost 7 mpg with that 300xs on his Quartershot.

Dannnggg...that is a bigger difference than I thought. Just to be certain, the 300xs does require 93 octane, right?(I noticed on Merc's specs the 250 XS doesn't.) During the summer my business is slow so a lot of days I'll do my daily routine and be able to hit the water about 4pm and I can run until about 8pm, so I'll do that darn near everyday. By that thinking, I'm sure I'm running at least 200 hours a year and AT LEAST 100 miles per four-hour outing. The differences in numbers are huge, any way you calculate it....

By my rough calculations, based your data, I'd be looking at the difference between 4000 gals per season to 1777gals per season. At $3/gallon thats $12,000 vs. $5330 in Fuel. That doesn't include oil.....that alone pays for the XS in three years, compared to what I'm running right now...and I could sell the Pro Max, which would take at least a year off that payback time.....

Speeddemon

[WILDMAN]

The XS does use 93. If you need an xs. Give me a call.

[DCBDaytona]

Daytona what is your rig, I see in your pic a boat that looks kinda like mine ;-)

What exactly is your reason that you think the 335 is the better way to go...What kinds of top speeds do you think I'll see with the 335 vs. the 300XS. What is your setup on your boat?

THanks!
Speeddemon

Speeddemon - I have a 2000 Mach 22 with twin 280's, so yes it probably does look similar to yours!

The reason I say the 335 is because of the performance gains you will see in comparison to the stock 300XS. I've dealt with 300PMs, 300X's and the 300XS and the 300XS has similar power to the PM not the X.

I have 2 buddies with single motor 22's...Both with 300x's and they run much harder than the 300 PM's so I can only imagine what the 335 will do. Eric's 335 is a BAD S$$ 300PM and if I had 300's on a Mach 26, he'd be getting my business.

Here's the numbers we have come up with...remember these are all different DCB Mach/s (GPS).

2000 Mach 26/Twin 300PM's - 103MPH
2005 F-26/Twin 300X's - 110 MPH
2006 F-26/Twin 300XS - 104MPH

Bottom line..I think the 335 would outrun the X and XS anyday. But if you're looking for fuel efficiency, go for the XS...But at the end of the day, the is NO FUN.:D

On a side note...you will be more that happy with Eric. He's a standup guy and a fellow Southern Californian like I am. Also, he can help setup your 22 perfectly. He's been around DCB's since the late 80's and know pretty much everything there is to know about them.

[WILDMAN]

Alot of the speed is in the set-up. When I first started rigging the 21 Liberators with 300x motors, they all ran 95-96. The next year, I changed the motor hieght and prop, and every one of those same boats then ran 103-105. Merctech ran the 300x and now the 300xs on the same boat, same prop, and same driver. !04 with the x, and 103 with the xs. The x was on saltwater which is usually faster anyway. The 300xs speed was in freshwater.

[Astro]

Simon...............it cost more fly first class than coach!!!!!!!!!!

[stylishskier]

Speeddemon - I have a 2000 Mach 22 with twin 280's, so yes it probably does look similar to yours!

The reason I say the 335 is because of the performance gains you will see in comparison to the stock 300XS. I've dealt with 300PMs, 300X's and the 300XS and the 300XS has similar power to the PM not the X.

I have 2 buddies with single motor 22's...Both with 300x's and they run much harder than the 300 PM's so I can only imagine what the 335 will do. Eric's 335 is a BAD S$$ 300PM and if I had 300's on a Mach 26, he'd be getting my business.

Here's the numbers we have come up with...remember these are all different DCB Mach/s (GPS).

2000 Mach 26/Twin 300PM's - 103MPH
2005 F-26/Twin 300X's - 110 MPH
2006 F-26/Twin 300XS - 104MPH

Bottom line..I think the 335 would outrun the X and XS anyday. But if you're looking for fuel efficiency, go for the XS...But at the end of the day, the is NO FUN.:D

On a side note...you will be more that happy with Eric. He's a standup guy and a fellow Southern Californian like I am. Also, he can help setup your 22 perfectly. He's been around DCB's since the late 80's and know pretty much everything there is to know about them.


different setup with twins vs a single on a heavy boat, once again, wildman and merctech have seem comparable numbers from XS to X with a drastic increase in fuel milage... drastic is probably a light term. Your hull being more similar to the 21 liberator, I'd have to say you need the XS... An intimidator 21 ran I think 98 with simons motor, with more setup and a different prop he would have been over 100 yes... but would he have run the 107 that the owner of intimidator ran with a 300X? I don't know (sorry I forget names) but all of these numbers and tests have been run on various setups, a 21 skater copy just went out with a 300XS, we'll have to see how those numbers stack up to a 300X 21 skater... 300X skaters usually run 103-108 I think depending on setup. Simons motor might outrun the XS, but I don't think it would be a landslide... IE 5 mph, I am betting the 2 would run within 2 mph of eachother... wildman and merctech say XS, its not my money but if it was, it'd probaby be with an XS if I could float it...

[merctech5591]

in my opinion with the money it takes to simonize the 300pm ($8,000),plus the money he can get for his running 300pm he would have plenty to buy a new xs with the addition of the 3rd year of warranty.. playing with your setup you will be within a couple of mph as a simon motor with half the fuel.. rick

[1BadAction]

im gonna vote in XS in this case.

#1 giving up 2-4mph isnt anything, the XS also pulls harder than a N/A 3.0L. if you were racing the same exact boat setup side by side, he probably couldnt reel you in.

#2 fuel economy. yea, we all say how it doesnt matter, but when you can get damn near twice the range on a tank of gas, that means you are on the water twice as long.

#3 Theres nothing like a brand new motor. I wish I could bottle the smell of the combination of new plastic, new rubber, merc high per oil, and assembly lube. its also pretty sweet to know that you are the only person that has ever ran that motor. opening the box it feels like a kid on christmas morning. :D

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/972/sst28022il.jpg

[SUPAJAY]

I agree 100%
There wont be much of a performance difference and the fuel consumption is key.
Plus everyone has a 300pm or X on their transom

How many 300xs have you seen ?

[SpeedDemon]

Well i just don't know what the hell to do...:p

[merctech5591]

Well i just don't know what the hell to do...:p

if you lived a little closer i would take you for a ride in the liberator so you can see how quiet and smooth the xs run. i took both of my boat's out a couple of week's ago, me in the qshot and my buddie in the liberator. at 50mph were were side by side i could not here the xs motor.. it is super quiet.. i cant say any bad thing's about the motor as of yet.. rick

[SCT]

Is there a warranty on the Simon? One thing I've been thinking about, can you get your money back on the re-sale of a Simon or a highly modified engine? Or is it just better to stay stock?

Any thoughts...

[WILDMAN]

I just got home from my little local test lake. I put a bigger prop on the 300xs powered 21 Liberator. This is a new boat and probably a couple hundred lbs heavier than Merctech's. I have an extra layer of glass put in all my boats. Anyway, the best I could ever get out of a 300x powered 21 was 104.4 mph. The 300xs boat ran 104 today[gps does'nt read tenths] on a 1.4 mile long lake. It ran 103-104 for 6 consecutive passes. I ran 22.5 miles and used 4-5 gallons of gas. I was wide open the entire time.

[Skatin]

I just got home from my little local test lake. I put a bigger prop on the 300xs powered 21 Liberator. This is a new boat and probably a couple hundred lbs heavier than Merctech's. I have an extra layer of glass put in all my boats. Anyway, the best I could ever get out of a 300x powered 21 was 104.4 mph. The 300xs boat ran 104 today[gps does'nt read tenths] on a 1.4 mile long lake. It ran 103-104 for 6 consecutive passes. I ran 22.5 miles and used 4-5 gallons of gas. I was wide open the entire time.



Wow everything I have heard about them is that they didn't perform like they thought they should. Or that there isn't enough of a difference between the 300XS and the 250XS. Isn't that why they stopped production on the 300XS?

[WILDMAN]

They did'nt stop it. I got one last week, and have two more coming. On a 21 checkmate, the 250xs runs 82 mph, the 300xs runs 90 mph. I have'nt run a 250 on a Liberator yet.

[THE HOGG]

YOU CALLED AND TALKED TO SIMON EXTENSIVELY IT SOUNDS LIKE, DONE THAT WITH MERCURY LATELY?? IT SOUNDS LIKE THE REAL QUESTION IS ARE YOU A SPEED DEMON?? OR JUST WORRIED ABOUT ECONOMY?? ONE THING FOR SURE, IF YOU DONT ATLEAST DO LIKE SOMEONE SAID AND RIDE IN SOMETHING WITH A SIMON MOTOR ON IT AND SOMETHING WITH AN XS ON IT YOU WILL BE DOING YOURSELF A DIS-SERVICE.. WE'LL BE RIDING IN WINTERHAVEN,FL. ON SUNDAY AND YOU CAN EVEN DRIVE MY JALOPY!! AND I BET IF YOU SHOW UP WE CAN GET WILDMAN TO BRING AN XS:D :D IM BETTIN SIMON WINS:eek: :D :D

[Skatin]

My local Merc dealer told me they stopped production. He said the only difference they are seeing is 3mph between the 250 and 300.

[WILDMAN]

Maybe he's lyin' to ya. I was told the 250 runs low 90's on the 21 Liberator. Never done it myself though.

[1BadAction]

My local Merc dealer told me they stopped production. He said the only difference they are seeing is 3mph between the 250 and 300.

time to get a dealer thats not on crack...

[Skatin]

He wouldn't lie to me. He really doesn't deal with performance boats though. Bassin ya know??? But he is a very honest guy and I have been dealing with him for a long time.

[Frank Molé]

What you don't like my name?
your name answers your question:eek: :D :D

[1BadAction]

i keep thinkin his name says "SeedDemon" LOL, :D :D

[David]

Merc has the 300XS at the Toronto boat show. I picked up the brochure on Wednesday. I would think that if Merc is promoting it, the motor must be in production.

According the the HP curves in the propaganda, the 300XS makes about 310 HP, and the 250 makes 270 HP. Could be true.

[TUNNEL T]

Speeddemon - I have a 2000 Mach 22 with twin 280's, so yes it probably does look similar to yours!

The reason I say the 335 is because of the performance gains you will see in comparison to the stock 300XS. I've dealt with 300PMs, 300X's and the 300XS and the 300XS has similar power to the PM not the X.

I have 2 buddies with single motor 22's...Both with 300x's and they run much harder than the 300 PM's so I can only imagine what the 335 will do. Eric's 335 is a BAD S$$ 300PM and if I had 300's on a Mach 26, he'd be getting my business.

Here's the numbers we have come up with...remember these are all different DCB Mach/s (GPS).

2000 Mach 26/Twin 300PM's - 103MPH
2005 F-26/Twin 300X's - 110 MPH
2006 F-26/Twin 300XS - 104MPH

Bottom line..I think the 335 would outrun the X and XS anyday. But if you're looking for fuel efficiency, go for the XS...But at the end of the day, the is NO FUN.:D

On a side note...you will be more that happy with Eric. He's a standup guy and a fellow Southern Californian like I am. Also, he can help setup your 22 perfectly. He's been around DCB's since the late 80's and know pretty much everything there is to know about them.
DCB DAYTONA i know the 06 dcb f-26 your talking about is my boat!(which is a 07 ) since i'm the first one dave rigged with these motors . your 104 mph that your talking about was right outa the box! since then i have been trying different props but to not much prevail (105mph so far) .but with a set of 34 4 blade cleavers i can not keep these motors off the rev limiter. believe me i know what this thing should run and i'm not done till i see that ########. right now i had bryan order me a set of 35cleavers in hope that might do it!!!!! you can go to LA BOAT SHOW TO SEE HER!!!!! TUNNEL T

[WILDMAN]

The 4 blade cleavers are usually 3-4 mph slower than the 3 blades. If you're turning the 34's at 6300-6400 at 105, then you're running 20% slip. Your setup is SERIOUSLY wrong. Cats should run 7-10%. At least all the Liberators do.

[03bignasty]

I've got the simon motor on my stroker and I love it. His customer service is second to none and his motors run great. They push my stroker bass boat pretty good.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/03bignasty/P1010710.jpg


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/03bignasty/P1020386.jpg

[Skatin]

BAM!!! Now that is beautiful.... Good lookin stuff Mr Big Nasty...

[stylishskier]

like I said before, Im not trying to knock simons motor, it seems like a great package, I'm just not buying that a simon will whip an XS in a race, especially if an XS pulls like an X and is nearly identical to an X on the top end. The torque shows through as well with tunnel T, he is pulling 34s to the rev limiter, its all in the setup boys, he will be running right with X engines when he fine tunes the setup, you can't deny wildmans milage numbers either

[stoker2001]

On a 21 checkmate, the 250xs runs 82 mph, the 300xs runs 90 mph. I have'nt run a 250 on a Liberator yet.Anything is possible,but i am a little skeptic:confused: :D If you look at the dyno sheets by Merc the Newer 205XS makes close to 270hp,so you are saying you gained 8 mph with 30 more horsepower.No offense,just a little tough to chew on:cool:

[stoker2001]

(105mph so far) .but with a set of 34 4 blade cleavers i can not keep these motors off the rev limiter. believe me i know what this thing should run and i'm not done till i see that ########. right now i had bryan order me a set of 35cleavers in hope that might do it!!!!! you can go to LA BOAT SHOW TO SEE HER!!!!! TUNNEL THey T,you remember when Ric Bowling (gone again) got 108mph with his 250XSs on the 28 Skater at 5900rpm.Maybe you could borrow his props?Lets hit the delta soon

[WILDMAN]

Anything is possible,but i am a little skeptic:confused: :D If you look at the dyno sheets by Merc the Newer 205XS makes close to 270hp,so you are saying you gained 8 mph with 30 more horsepower.No offense,just a little tough to chew on:cool:
The dyno sheets on the 300xs are closer to 310. To be EXACT, the 250xs ran 81.6, the 300xs ran 89.3. So it was only a 7.7 mph difference. I was told by a 21 Liberator owner in California with a 250xs, that he has run 92. The 300xs I ran yesterday ran 104. You can be a skeptic, but have you ever driven either, or both? What possible reason would I have to exagerate?

[RNM018]

Well i just don't know what the hell to do...:p
SPEED , You already own the ProMax , so go with the SIMON 335 mod. . If you didn't already own the motor then the XS would have been the obvious choose . Good Luck ! Rich Martin 018:cool:

[Skatin]

I would never buy anything from Mercury until it was out for several years. My opinion for what it is worth.. Merc motors are great but they expect the end user to work the bugs out of what they design. Not a problem if they stand behind what they sell. They don't if you are out of warranty even if the problem is an actual design flaw. To make it even worse they profit off the parts that you have to buy to fix their poorly designed product.


Go with what has proven itself to be a great performing and very reliable motor.......Simon 335....

[Double Rigged]

300xs's blow away old 3.0l out of the hole. Gas savings on fuel are 1/3 cost for 20hp less. According to what our speedo and pitch props we are running verus rpm 300xs are making 315hp with a ton of bottom end. No smoke and they make noise after 4000rpm.

Could not be happier with 300xs's. Been there done that with old 300's heads, intake exhaust work. Not worth the gain.

[THE HOGG]

300xs's blow away old 3.0l out of the hole. Gas savings on fuel are 1/3 cost for 20hp less. According to what our speedo and pitch props we are running verus rpm 300xs are making 315hp with a ton of bottom end. No smoke and they make noise after 4000rpm.

Could not be happier with 300xs's. Been there done that with old 300's heads, intake exhaust work. Not worth the gain.
BEEN THERE DONE WHAT??? BUILT YOUR OWN MOTORS, SO THEY ARE COMPARABLE TO SIMONS? 20 HP LESS THAN WHAT?? I WILL ASSURE YOU THAT THE 300XS'S ARE NOT 20 HORSE MORE THAN SIMONS! HOW ABOUT APPLES TO APPLES??? I REALLY DONT CARE IF HE BUYS SIMONS OR MERCURY'S, BUT LETS NOT CLOUD THE FACTS WITH APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISONS.

[SpeedDemon]

300xs's blow away old 3.0l out of the hole. Gas savings on fuel are 1/3 cost for 20hp less. According to what our speedo and pitch props we are running verus rpm 300xs are making 315hp with a ton of bottom end. No smoke and they make noise after 4000rpm.

Could not be happier with 300xs's. Been there done that with old 300's heads, intake exhaust work. Not worth the gain.

That bottom end thing is huge with a heavier hull like the Mach22....though I'm sure Simon's motors make a lot of bottom end too. :D

I know my name says Speeddemon, but I'm not an idiot either. I spend a ton of dough on fuel every month(got 2 F250 diesels, as well as a Subaru WRX and a Toyota hybrid) and I understand all too well that money saved on fuel is money in the pocket....$3000-$4000 a year fuel savings is huge. IT WILL PAY FOR THE MOTOR!!!:)

Speeddemon

[RNM018]

Sounds like your mind is made up then . Order the new 300XS and be done with it . Rich Martin 018:rolleyes:

[Euroski]

Does anyone have the torque/hp graph of the 300xs?

[SpeedDemon]

Does anyone have the torque/hp graph of the 300xs?
Yeah I'd like to see that too!

[David]

Torque = HP divided by 5252

If I'm lucky, I've attached the HP curve

[TUNNEL T]

The 4 blade cleavers are usually 3-4 mph slower than the 3 blades. If you're turning the 34's at 6300-6400 at 105, then you're running 20% slip. Your setup is SERIOUSLY wrong. Cats should run 7-10%. At least all the Liberators do.
i'm on rev limiter before speed catches up to motors ,trust me i know my slip is horrible at that # ,outa the box i ran a set of 4 blade cleavers at 104 @6000 rpms (which put me at about 14% ) that is the % that i'm baseing my speeds off of (calculations ) . i'd love to be at 10% .TUNNEL T

[WILDMAN]

You probably have your motors too high. That's usually the reason for the high slip.

[TUNNEL T]

motors are at original height ,did raise motors up one hole but hit rev limiter even faster ,so i lowered back down! motors are were dave set them up at factory . ordered a set of 35's i'll let you'
ll know how that works ! TUNNEL T

[TUNNEL T]

motors are at original height ,did raise motors up one hole but hit rev limiter even faster ,so i lowered back down! motors are were dave set them up at factory . ordered a set of 35's i'll let you'
ll know how that works ! TUNNEL T

[WILDMAN]

I'd lower them one more hole before you go buying new props.

[TUNNEL T]

wm ,right now i'm dead even with bottom of boat ! i'm not dishing out cash this time there owed to me from build , i wanted a set of 4 blade et's but ron at merc said it will be awhile !!! TUNNEL T

[WILDMAN]

You should have a pretty good bite at that hieght. Are you over trimming? How high and long is your roostertail? Your tail should be long and about 3ft high at WOT. Like in this video of my 25 Liberator. http://youtube.com/watch?v=805c3Asi9kw

[Dutch]

speeddemon, where is dingmans ferry pa? what are you near?
where do you boat?
thanks.

[TUNNEL T]

You should have a pretty good bite at that hieght. Are you over trimming? How high and long is your roostertail? Your tail should be long and about 3ft high at WOT. Like in this video of my 25 Liberator. http://youtube.com/watch?v=805c3Asi9kw
yes my tail is long and low ,i'm playing with the trim in increments up down all over ,in this boat i feel so much more comfortable than my little 20.2 lavey, i have time to play!!!! the lavey ran 100 mph ,going from a little boat that flat ass accellerates to big barge takes all the fun out of it ! the big boat just fits our boating out here ! ( i'll build another little rocket again soon) .in one of your other posts on your 21 you said you ran a few mph slower with the xs ,same prop and same boat , either you couldn't spin that same prop with the x or did you go up in pitch with xs ! TUNNEL T

[WILDMAN]

When I ran slower, that was the first time out with the 300xs. The prop was too small and hit the limiter. It now runs 104. The EXACT same speed as with the 300x, but almost double the mileage!
99.9 the first time out. Now runs over 104.

[492slayer]

Just finished reading the posts (all 7 pages) about the debate on the 300PM/X/XS vs Simon 335HP. Now I'm not a speed demon with my 22' Ranger Bassboat, but I'll say from experience that when I had Eric build my blown 225 EFI into his 335HP Badass setup, it was a totally new experience. I've gained almost 10mph (75.1GPS) which is huge for a Ranger, and it'll throw you back in your seat. My hole shot is between 2-3 seconds, so if you don't think they have low end, think again. One other point to remember is that I can run 91 Octane and the XS is needing 93. I can't even find 92 here in Northern California, so where are you gonna fill that XS up? Maybe if you mix some of the Unocal Race fuel with 91, but the race fuel is about $6/gal. I'm just a bass fisherman who appreciates quality work, so Eric gets my vote. I'm waiting to see what Mercury does for the guys who have problems with the 3.2L DFI Motors.:D

[WILDMAN]

I ran a 225 efi on a 2001 Liberator at 84mph. I bolted a 300x on, and ran 104.4 mph. The 300x and 300xs are supposed to take 91 octane, not 93. We just always put premium in them and it is 93.

[03bignasty]

Whichever motor you decide to go with is your choice, however I can assure you that Eric's motor will outrun a 300xs. The top end is right around where an x is. Now my buddy has an x and he has had eric's motor. The simonized motor will outpull an x with the same pitch prop on it until it's torque curve starts dropping off. With a simonized motor you get a few things. You get customer service that Mercury couldn't approach in their wildest dreams. If you have a problem and you call Eric he bends over backwards to make sure that the customer is satisfied. I can't impress on you how good his customer service is. Anybody that has ever dealt with Eric will confirm this. When you buy a simonized motor you also get a motor that is super reliable with the ultimate bling.That 3.0 powerhead is extremely reliable and when Eric does one he knows exactly what to do to them to keep them running reliably for years. The motors have been around for a while and the bugs have been worked out of them. (will the xs have bugs? who knows.) And they run like a scalded dog. Finally Eric gives all of his customers a one year warranty exactly like Mercury does. If you have a problem the motor will be fixed no questions asked. And 103.3 with a big old bassboat ain't too bad.:)

[TD]

I didn't read the rest of this thread because it's too long but if you are wanting fast I'd say go with Simon. Builds a nice motor and has a warranty? No comparison.
TD

[492slayer]

Kurt, you make some good points... let me expand on it. I looked at replacing my 225 with a new 250XS here in California. I can say that with controls and a new prop I was looking right at $20,500. You might get it cheaper somewhere else, but that was the cost quoted to me. I can imagine I could tack another grand onto a 300X at that time. The 300XS wasn't out a year and a half ago. The point is Eric built my motor for $7500. Everything in it is esentially new at the powerhead. As far as the trim pump and lower unit, yeah they aren't new, but I could have Eric redo my motor 3 times and still even out the cost of a new 300XS. I'm partial to Eric, because the man takes care of me everytime I call with a question regarding the motor. :cool:

[Euroski]

All good points of having each engine, Simon 300PM, 300X, 300xsbut at this time the 300XS makes close to the same HP all on 1/2 the gas usage. I'm sure in a few years one could mod the 300xs. And... with the extra 12cubes of the 3.2l 300xs it's got to help with increased torque.