Chine-walking

[PaulO]

Just took my boat (21 Superboat) out for the first time with its new-to-me V8 Evinrude . Engine runs great, seems like it will fly with this motor. External hydraulic steering, 8.5" Setback, propshaft 2" below pad. Amazingly there is zero torque steer (torque tab installed) but it porpoises pretty annoyingly and chine-walks like mad. Got to get this sorted out. What would engine height do to either the chine walk or the porpoise? I'm sure Hoser will have some suggestions as it is his old setup installed just as he had it on the same boat but, I hoped you guys could offer some suggestions also.
Thanks,
PaulO

[spanky2002]

well if you have have a low water pickup you definately can go higher with the motor. the porpoising usually is from low motor height, slow speed, or bad prop. as for the chinewalking, motor height does affect this too.

[grimreaper]

"walking" will FURR-SURE get your attention........

.........the last time my 'stream started walkin' - I almost had to change my shorts !!

[THE HOSER]

PAUL LEAVE IT ALONE

[DUCKY]

Just make sure all of the linkages on the hydraulic rams are tight, and that the motor has solid mounts. You motor seems a little low, but I don't know what the pad on your hull looks like. Also, do you have a cone/low water pickup? If you have low water pickups, solid mounts and a reasonably flat pad, you should be able to run the propshaft about level with the pad. The deeper the vee in the pad, though, the lower you have to run the motor. Make sure you are not over-trimming, cause my Laser picks up a nasty porpoise and chine walk with the addition of too much trim. Just find a long straight stretch of water, start with the motor slighly negative, hold it wide-open and bump the trim until the boat feels light, but under control, and take note of the motor position (This is your sweet spot). If RPM's and rooster tail start to climb without an increase in speed, you are over trimmed. Have Fun and BE SAFE:D

[jerry]

jack it till it starts to smoke than lower it one hole ,HAHAHAHAHAH i see hoser gave you alot of input !!

[THE HOSER]

i what paul to learn the boat and motor combo. first before he beats you and your so called boat of yours

[CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1]

ENGINE HEIGHT WILL CENTAINLY AFFECT THE AMOUNT OF CHINE WALK EXPERIENCED IN A V-BOTTOM. THE HIGHER YOU RUN THE ENGINE, THE LESS IT WILL WANT TO SETUP CHINE WALK. HOWEVER, THE ONLY WAY TO CONTROL CHINE WALK IS TO LEARN HOW TO DRIVE THE BOAT OUT OF IT AND SET THE BOAT. THIS WILL ONLY COME FROM TIME IN THE SEAT.

[apache21]

Very well said. I have a 21 apache and i have the same problem at 65 mph. Jerk the wheel a little and it will come out of the walk.
A lot of seat time is what I learnt

[PaulO]

Thank you guys for your input. Unfortunately, the chine walking begins at about 75-80 and continues to get worse as speed increases. No amount of steering or alternate trim settings can get it to stop. Raising the engine did eliminate the porpoising and then required less trim to get the least chine-walking I could but, it is still there and way way too violent. Two things I have to report since last post may be hints to you guys:
1. I noticed that the engine is not exactly perpendicular to the transom. It is slighly tilted to one side. How the heck I managed that after measuring 50 times I do not know. I don't know how this may effect chine-walking.
2. The steering (external hydraulic ram) has way too much wheel travel (almost 7 turns lock to lock) and that makes it real difficult to quickly correct when it begins to start its walking. Looking for a Capliano helm to replace my seastarII if anybody has one.
Thanks again,
PaulO

[Ziemer]

Never driven a V-Bottom with Hydraulic steering, however, I know with dual cable steering you get the feedback to help you counter the walking. The hydraulic stays firm, therefore lessening the feedback from the boat. That's also why you don't have any torque steer.

Didn't look like anything has mentioned this. Also what type of steering did you have before and were you running speeds anywhere close to where you are now? Pre-hydraulic steering did the boat act the same way?

Good luck.

[Rob King]

I have only driven one v pad boat with hydraulic steering I couldn't get the hang of it. It was on a Bullet bass boat with a 225 Promax. from the time chine walk started it seemed like I was behind it all the time ( guess I drive more by feel than I thought) there was just no input back in the wheel. Stick with it though, I think it just takes a little more time to get the hang of it. The owner of the Bullet could drive it just fine so it can be done.

Good luck
Rob

[jerry]

well well looks like jerry will have to go to tanner park to show you how to drive that thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'll give you one tip , steer through it .

[Pete]

my delta did this when i got to speed and almost threw me out once. what i learnt is what all of these guys are telling you, seat time is the key. After i drove itfor a wile i learnt how to get outof the walk and get it going nice an smooth again



Pete

[NPK2003]

I seemed to battle chine walk a little too much on my Ally 2003 lately. Noticed that the motor was sitting at about 12:30 if a hour hand. Hard to notice in water but was obvious on the trailer. Couldn't get the motor to go straight by loosening bolts and even pushing on it with a forklift. Looks like the upper starboard motor mounting bolt is bent. I am having the boat re-rigged by RP at GPI and we'll see if it gets back to normal. I am no expert on setups, but seems if the motor is at an angle to the pad, the two will fight over control of the hull attitude. Good luck in getting a cure.

Nick K

[MODVP22]

A friend had a 24' Concord LS-7 with a 300XP, that walked all over the place...actually it flopped. He had to drive itl ike crazy to keep it straight, wouldnt go hardly 60 and was scary if you didn't know how to drive it and steer through it. He was running a stock gearcase, factory soft engine mounts, and was still on the control bock throttle. He really got the hang of it when he installed a foot throttle, but it still did it, and would land to one side if he wasn't able to bring the trim down before he got out of the throttle. The mounts (if ya don't already have solid ones) might really help. The nose cone would make it easier to control too, makes the gearcase longer. Height sounds like it could go up a bit, you can always go back where you started if that doesn't work. CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1 is right, go higher and it won't want to walk as much.
Good luck

[pyro]

That steering situation sounds a bit odd. Maybe he's ogt some air in the lines? Couldn't that make the steering soft and unresponsive? That will difinitely make chinewalk impossible to control. Bleed the system again??

[PaulO]

Nothing to compare it to with prior setup. Different motor, different bracket, different steering. Prior speeds topped out at around seventy but, it was the most docile handling boat ever. You could have let your 8 year old drive it. I am straightening out the misalignment and moving the pivot point of the ram inboard to try to speed up the steering response a little and we'll see if that helps or gives more clues.
Jerry,
I would love for you to come down and meet me at Tanner. If you think you have something valuable to add or, just shoot the breeze, send me an e-mail and I will give you my cell number.
I am not inexperienced and I am no chicken. I don't think anybody could drive through this chine-walking. Maybe swim through it!!
PaulO

[THE HOSER]

i think we should let jerry drive it :D

[jerry]

finally !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hoser makes sense :D :D :D :D

[hrvx]

hi Paul
did u get my email?

[CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1]

CORRECTION___ chine walking can occur at around 50 mph depending on boat and engine setup. Alot of factors come into play that can cause or enhance chinewalk: play in steering head, cables, attaching kits,tiller arm, and upper and lower motor mount play. You need to address all oth these areas and reduce or eliminate play. Then spend the time in the seat learning how to drive the boat out of it. Why do you think so many guys run tunnel boats, much easier to drive.

[PaulO]

Update:
Three things that might be setting up this chine-walking:
1. Engine at slight angle (not exactly perpendicular).
2. Steering ratio way of (almost 7 turns lock to lock). Cannot input quick enough steering changes to counter the chine-walk setup.
3. Stock engine mounts.

Here is where I need the opinions:

1. How much will stock engine mounts contribute to this problem even though the engine is not steered by the tiller but, rather by a wingplate?
If I change the helm (an expensive solution) for the proper ratio, will I still need to go to solid mounts?

2. If I change the mounts to solids, is it safe to steer this thing from the tiller with a seastar system? (I have the components).

Thanks again guys.
Paul

[CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1]

If you are using a sidemount hydraulic ram and a plate, then you have the best. At this point, you are steering the midsection with the ram and not through the tiller which is affected by the upper mount. With your engine straight, try to move the midsection from side to side. Then try to move the gearcase from side to side by applying pressure to the skeg. If movement is present, you may have a defective lower motor mount. You can leave the rubber upper mount in place and change the lower to a solid one. If you have no movement in the midsection at all then check for air in the hydraulic lines. If all is good, then spend some quality time in the seat and learn how to drive it.

[PhastBoat]

:eek:

[PhastBoat]

;)

[WILDMAN]

My 21 Rallysport is the same hull as your Superboat. It did the chinewalk thing so bad when I got it that I wanted to sell it. I've got seastar pro steering too. What you need is seat time and more setback. I'm running 19 inches and the more setback, the harder it is for the boat to pivot back and forth on it's tail. good luck and if you need a new Rapid-jack, I sell em!

[PaulO]

Wildman,
Being that you have the hydraulic jackplate, do you notice what effect engine height has on the chine-walking?
Thanks,
PaulO

[WILDMAN]

It helped some, but I can't go too high without a nosecone. We raised it on a friends Superboat with a 300X and it helped on his. The stupid Superboat factory sold him the boat with a 25 inch motor. He could'nt get the motor high enough, now he's spending $3500 to change it to a 20 inch.

[THE HOSER]

your telling me that superboat in lindenhurst sold your friend a 21` superboat with a 300x merc on it with a 25" mid section

[WILDMAN]

Yup! $46,000 worth! It's the 21 center console. From the day he got it, he could'nt get it over 60 mph because it was so out of control. The owner of Superboat went to his house last year during the Daytona offshore race and he could'nt get it over 60 safely either. My friend said to me, I'll give you $500 if you can get it over 70. I sure wanted his money, but after driving it, I did'nt want to die either. They shipped back to NY last summer and never could get it right, so they built him a new hull. Guess what, no difference. After 10 months up there my friend said f--- it, send me my boat back! Now he's spending $3500 to fix something he never should have had to. My guess is that Superboat got a good deal on that 25 inch motor and pawned it off on him. He's not a happy camper. He now has over $50,000 in a year old boat, with an expired motor warranty, with under 10 hours on it, That he's had to pay for for14 months. I think I'll stay with my Rallysport. see-ya WILDMAN

[Just Streamin]

Considering putting hydraulic steering on my V King. Is this a bad idea? I am sure it will take a bit to get used to. How much of a difference am I looking at between dual steering and hydraulic steering???

[WILDMAN]

Hydraulic works great. Alot less torque. Gonna cost around $850 with the hoses

[THE HOSER]

wildman
what was johns answer to your friend about the 25" mid ?

[WILDMAN]

My friend Mark is so discusted by the whole deal that he won't even call him again. The worst thing is, the boat was in NY all that time and they supposedly tried different setbacks, hieghts, props, etc. I'm sure they had to know the problem was with the motor! Another Superboat dealer told me at the Miami boat show, that Superboat has never used a 25 inch motor on any 21 he's ever seen. He seemed confused when I told him Mark's story.

[THE HOSER]

why didnt john just change the mid section?

[WILDMAN]

I don't know. Mark tried everything else the last few months. He just decided to do this as a last resort. Mark's got 7 boats, and the Superboat is the 2nd smallest. He buys what he wants when he wants. It's too bad Superboat lost a customer.

[zlivewire]

Yup! $46,000 worth! It's the 21 center console. From the day he got it, he could'nt get it over 60 mph because it was so out of control. The owner of Superboat went to his house last year during the Daytona offshore race and he could'nt get it over 60 safely either. My friend said to me, I'll give you $500 if you can get it over 70. I sure wanted his money, but after driving it, I did'nt want to die either. They shipped back to NY last summer and never could get it right, so they built him a new hull. Guess what, no difference. After 10 months up there my friend said f--- it, send me my boat back! Now he's spending $3500 to fix something he never should have had to. My guess is that Superboat got a good deal on that 25 inch motor and pawned it off on him. He's not a happy camper. He now has over $50,000 in a year old boat, with an expired motor warranty, with under 10 hours on it, That he's had to pay for for14 months. I think I'll stay with my Rallysport. see-ya WILDMAN





whats up with superboat,why are people rigging these boats with 25'' john told me directly 20'',but i still see alot with 25,how are they not getting crazy walking...having hard time w/mine above 63 with a 20.pretty new to these boats,able to deal with it but really have to work it,hopefully with more seat time i ll get more comfortable.

[HStream1]

Thank you guys for your input. Unfortunately, the chine walking begins at about 75-80 and continues to get worse as speed increases. No amount of steering or alternate trim settings can get it to stop. Raising the engine did eliminate the porpoising and then required less trim to get the least chine-walking I could but, it is still there and way way too violent. Two things I have to report since last post may be hints to you guys:
1. I noticed that the engine is not exactly perpendicular to the transom. It is slighly tilted to one side. How the heck I managed that after measuring 50 times I do not know. I don't know how this may effect chine-walking.
2. The steering (external hydraulic ram) has way too much wheel travel (almost 7 turns lock to lock) and that makes it real difficult to quickly correct when it begins to start its walking. Looking for a Capliano helm to replace my seastarII if anybody has one.
Thanks again,
PaulO

The sea star pro only has 4 turns L to L and is the correct system for speeds over 60 mph and 300 HP +. That will help the correction factor greatly. Also like many here have already said "seat time" seat time" seat time". Take a look at your hull near the stern. Some time the hook is greater on one side than the other if that is the cast then correcting that will also help.

Good luck and be safe.

[jimnello]

I Would suggest that your Seastar Helm is a 1.7cu in displacement. If you swap it out for a 2.0 cu in or a 2.4 cu in that will reduce the number of turns, providing more direct steering.

I dont know what cylinder you have but here is how to determine the number of turns lock to lock. If you divide the volume of your cylinder by the helm displacement this will provide you with the number of turns lock to lock.
Example H42 Helm = 4.0 cu inch
BA200 Cylinder = 18.9 cu inch
18.9 / 4.0 = 4.725 turns lock to lock.

The higher the output of the helm will reduce the number of turns lock to lock (more direct) but will increase load / effort to turn the steering wheel.
You could or should change out the cylinder for a PRO Series cylinder as these have keyed bullhorns meaning you wont get any cylinder walk. I would also be running Pro Hoses also as you can get swelling in the standard hoses which wont help your situation.

Anyone attaining speeds over 60 - 70mph (In my opinion) should be using the full Pro Version of Seastar steering. Steering is something that you dont want to fail or not respond correctly at high speeds!!!!

Hope this info helps....

[transomstand]

This thread was posted in 2002

Poor guy probably threw himself out of the boat by now:leaving:

[whipper]

This thread was posted in 2002

Poor guy probably threw himself out of the boat by now:leaving:
:D:D:iagree:

[john j 80 viking]

I would put the smallest steering wheel I could find on it then burn up as much gas as you can, if your going 75-80 mph I'd say you have a sound set up

[john j 80 viking]

This thread was posted in 2002

Poor guy probably threw himself out of the boat by now:leaving:
Thats what happens when I don't take my medication:eek:

[Riverman]

Thats what happens when I don't take my medication:eek:THAT was funny!!

[Jimboat]

Paulo - lot's of good advice for you to try...these guys have lot's of experience.

also, check out thread on porpoising (http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1734235&postcount=11)

also, check out thread on chine walk (http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1148482&postcount=14); for more see article on chine walking (http://www.aeromarineresearch.com/adverts/HB_Jan2008.html)

[zlivewire]

guys thanks for allowing this old post to come back to life,yesterday,real windy 15/20 mph wind 3 guys no walking,of coarse my problem isnt solved cause im sure today w/no wind or chop my problem will be back,had one guy standing in btwn me and pass and could not get the boat to walk,not that i was trying,but surprised it wasnt happening,so my question is do i have a set up problem,or just a weight distribution problem.boats a 24 superboat 250efi and it usually starts walkin around 54to63 runnin a 24p trophy and the boats only getting to 5300 rpm so it has more to go,maybe ill try to get a 23 tempest that someone recommended,really was in no rush as walkin has me a little scared to go faster,usually me and wife and two small boys,thanks for help or and advice

[ar300johnson]

you need to leave your wife and 2 small boys out of the boat until your setup and ability to control chine walk is complete. beside the weight and balance issues from passehgers, you don't want to get them wet. that would end your performance boating career. good luck and be safe. remember everyone on this board had to learn how to drive their boats. try to make sure bottom is straight and all angles and edges are sharp.

[Jimboat]

you need to leave your wife and 2 small boys out of the boat until your setup and ability to control chine walk is complete. beside the weight and balance issues from passehgers, you don't want to get them wet. that would end your performance boating career. good luck and be safe. remember everyone on this board had to learn how to drive their boats. try to make sure bottom is straight and all angles and edges are sharp.

ar300johnson - EXCELLENT advice!

[VELOCITY 3.6GT]

Paul,
I had a very similiar set up to what you are running. I found backing out a bit turn to the left and punch it settles it in then fly it high. As for porpusing its a heavy beast on the back and this has alot to do with it. What pitch prop are you running. Try a 25 or 26 shooter if you have acess. These work well but you will loose a little on the top. Hope this helps Rick

[zlivewire]

thanks for replies guys,really have no problem controlling walk pretty much use to it,just have to work a little harder,obviously i dont push it w/kids in boat,you can pretty much run this boat at 60 without touching the wheel and it just tracks perfect,even through 2/3 ft.if i need to bring up my rpms to get to 5750 dont i need to go down to a 23 and not up ,that 23 3blade i tried didnt agree w/boat the 24 trophy makes the boat feel like a cadillac.you think a 23 4 blade would smooth it out again.btw no porposing at all....