Speedmaster questions

[Droll]

Currently working on a old super speedmaster, I know what it is, but I want to know more about it ( early model, late model ??? +++ )
Is this (http://forum.hem-mekk.net/manuals/ssm_parts.pdf)the right partsmanual ( pdf file )??

http://home.online.no/~arnekd/ssm/ssm_liten.jpg
Just put on some primer today, it's now white ....

Bad closeup of the number
http://home.online.no/~arnekd/ssm/number.jpg
38 6666 RH 4/5

Second:
How to mount it on a inline ??, I think I know but want some confirmation:) .
1. Cut water tube .
2. Shorten the studs on the drive shaft housing .
3. Make room for the front part of the water pump.

Anything else ??

Arne Kjetil

[Raceman]

Obviously it's a 14/15 Right rotation. The exhaust snout has been modified some, and that's one of the external distingurishing characteristics, so it's kinda hard to say where it falls. The latest style had the cavitation plate square on the back and that part isn't shown in the picture, but also had the lower part of the snout closed at about a 45º angle, and yours didn't have that configuration, even before the cut.

You might find this thread helpful, keeping in mind that the snout has DEFINATELY been whacked some on yours. I'd think it's one of the first 2 types. Scott Bridges posted another one down lower, but it has the different shaped skeg, so I'm sure yours isn't one of those. http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25320&highlight=evolution+speedmaster

I think you've about covered the installation requirements, except the shift shaft is in the way too. It's been so long since I ran one on an inline that I can't remember if it'll just shove out of the way or if you have to remove it. Also, if it has an exhaust liner in it, it'll be in the way too. If that's the case it seems like you can cut it off even with the bottom of the mid-housing with a saws all. Like I said, it's been a long time.

I've never seen a manual on one, so don't know if it's got the shimming proceedures, but it's extremely critical that the pinions be shimmed to carry an equal load. Otherwise the gearcase will destroy itself.

[Droll]

This picture might give you a better angel.

http://home.online.no/~arnekd/ssm/ssm_primer_2.jpg
Someone had build up the thickness of the skeg ( bondo or epoxy ), decided to leave it, just replaced some that was missing .

Knew about the shift shaft and the exhaust liner :o , just forgot to add them to my list .

Suspected the "RH 4/5" to be Right hand 14/15:) , going to be 14/14 now.

Have searched this forum for info about Speedmater, inline, twister +++ , have found and read those pages more than one time :)

Still looking for a service manual or a good description of the rebuild, before I starting to put it together .

Arne Kjetil

[Raceman]

That picture clearly shows how the exhaust area was cut. I can't understand why anybody would thicken the skeg with filler UNLESS they're hiding a weld, since there's NO torque when running those units. I think I'd have to grind it off and know for sure if it had a whole skeg welded on. If so, I wouldn't run it.

As for the rebuild, I've always heard that it takes special tools to assemble and shim em right, and of course the shimming is very critical.

Do you have another gearset to convert it from 14/15 to 1:1? Depending on the boat, you may very well like the 14/15 better, given the difficulty in finding props in lower pitches. I've never run across anything lower than a 15 for sale, although I'm sure there were some. To put it in perspective, running a 15 is about the same as running a 30 on your original gearcase, and there aren't that many applications around that can pull that much pitch with an inline. 14/15 isn't night and day difference, but every little bit helps.

[JAFFA]

Looks like a Mk 1 box, youll find reassembly all most the same as the mk 6, so if you can get a manual for that it should lead you in the right direction. Incidently if it is a mk 1 the mk 6 gears will fit so you can get new ones. The mk6 gears are stronger than the old ones (14/14)
Good luck

[Raceman]

I've never seen any of the Speedmasters refered to as Mk 1's. There were MC1's and SSM's. This unit is DEFINATELY an SSM. It would seem doubtful that he Mk VI gears would interchange into this unit without changing other parts (if at all) because the VI's use the big propshaft and the SSM's use the small one. I'm pretty sure the driveshaft is different also.

[tinker060]

Is this a single pinion or dual pinion case? The older cases were single pinion and you want to stay away from these units.

The old SSMs also came in 13:16 which was for short courses and made a great drag ratio. Not many around and a stout I6 or V6 would be tough on them real quick.

You can put a SSM6 shaft into the old dual pinion case if you have the rear bearing dimensions reduced to match the earlier shaft size. You would have to use props for the newer case but that should not be a problem. If you have this done make sure you put a good radius in all corners and then polish them out to where there are NO stress risers. If you have a heavy boat, there could be some added stress with this arrangement where you go from "small" bearing shaft to the bigger prop shaft size. I went the reverse direction (old shaft into a new case) and have had no problems. The internal gear sets and shafts are the same from the rear bearing forward.

Raceman, I think most of the props below 15P were two blades. There are some still around but as you pointed out getting hard to find. I had four or five but made the mistake of cutting of the blades and pressing the hubs into some newer three blade right hands. Still have one left but not sure about the pitch. Will have a look.

Jon Wright

[Raceman]

Jon, I'm pretty sure that the slot in the gearcase below the cavitation plate, which is used for shimming indicates dual pinion in most cases. I know it's that way between the earliest stuff and the 70's twin pinions. The only one that I'm unsure of is the single pinion that was used on the 3 cyl race engines (650X & 700X). Since those were mid 70's engines themselves, I don't know if they just used the regular SSM housing with different parts. The 3 cyl Speedmasters were 13:16's also.

[JAFFA]

Yes the SSM box can have mk6 gears although there are various prop shafts for the ssm you need the prop shaft that has the splines that go all the way to the front nut threads. We actually had a prop shaft made with a larger prop spline to run mk6 props it had a sort of swage in front of the prop to rest up against before reducing to the stanadard ssm back bearing. We ran the box on a 2 litre carb motor with good reliabilty. It went well with a 16 dewalt 14/15 ratio, kilo at 106 mph. This was a couple of years ago when mk 6 boxs where hard to get (exspensive) and we had a pile of ssm parts.
Regards

[Droll]

I think I'd have to grind it off and know for sure if it had a whole skeg welded on. If so, I wouldn't run it.

As for the rebuild, I've always heard that it takes special tools to assemble and shim em right, and of course the shimming is very critical.

Do you have another gearset to convert it from 14/15 to 1:1? ***.

Shouldn't have show you the picture, but wasn't happy with the painting anyway:rolleyes: , it's now back to bare metal .... NO welding :)
I got 1 set of gears, and those are 14/14, thats why I am converting to 1:1.

Since I got it back to bare metal, have been thinking about welding on the missing part of the snout ( or rebuild it as close as possible ), any thoughts ??


Is this a single pinion or dual pinion case?
It's a Super Speedmaster also dual pinion .

Do you know this lower units, I am looking for a service manual. OR any useful info about putting them together :)

Arne Kjetil

[Mark75H]

13:16 is the ratio that was made for the 650x/700x triple. You just leave out the back gears if you are racing with less than 100 hp, but I'd run dual gears if I had them in any non sanctioned racing motor - its not like they last as long as gear shift gears.

Norris is correct if it has an upper shim checking port, it is always a Super case, there is nothing to check in the top of the single pinion case. I think the last generation of Supers did not have the upper clearance checking port

[Raceman]

I think the last generation of Supers did not have the upper clearance checking port

Sam, I've got one of what I believe to be the last generation of SSM's. I bought it from Seebold at Eufaula in 76 or 77 or therebouts when they'd all changed to VI's. It has the squared off cavitation plate on the back and the partially closed exhaust snout. It DOES HAVE the clearance checking port. I'm not saying they didn't do away with it after mine, but it's a pretty late unit.

[tinker060]

Droll, No, I do not have a manual and do not know the set-up procedure for these units. As Raceman said, you need a set of special tools (and a lot of patience) to take the units apart and set the gear lash and clearances.

I can check with a friend of mine who does the work on my lower units to see if he has a manual and/or if he knows where to get one and the necessary tools.

Will only post the information IF he gives me a positive answer.


Good Luck with your project.

Jon

[raymar]

Droll, the exhaust outlet may or may not have been shortened; this was a modification Merc made to them in the 1970s as shown in the Hi-Performance catalogs I have. Some folks did cut some of them out this way to gain a little prop clearance or just to make it like the latest type at the time. The type with the 45 degree partial closure that Raceman mentions came after this.
Incidentally, I saw one of them protested at the St.Louis races when one showed up on a boat from Tennessee because it was the only SSM like it there. (the 45 degree closure type)
I have one of the earlier types with the long exhaust someone tried to shorten; the guy must have been a shoemaker because he did a "cobble-job".:D

[Droll]

Getting closer with this puzzel, at this moment I am only missing 2 seals ( prop shaft ) and some sort of service manual or howto on the assembly.

http://home.online.no/~arnekd/ssm/ssm_complete_1.jpg
Only the short driveshaft is installed in this picture.


Droll, the exhaust outlet may or may not have been shortened; this was a modification Merc made to them in the 1970s as shown in the Hi-Performance catalogs I have.
Don't know if this mod is made by Mercury or some other mechanic, but it's nicely machined, it got a nice 1.380" radius in the corner.

Found a service manual for the II-SSM, III-SSM, IV-SSM, V-SSM stern drive units, I know it's a different animal, BUT I got some ideas about how to assemble my unit .
Any better service manuals out there ?? can this one be used #90-849240 ( sst-120 , SSM-IV, SSM-V )


Arne Kjetil

[baldad45]

I like your picture log,must have been a big job getting it apart with all that corrosion. If you find that any of these manuals are useful for the superspeedmaster please post them here if not to large . Looks like you're doing a great job !I have a SSM that the exhaust outlet looks exactly like yours ,if it was nonfactory they did a great job.It was on a TII but not sure it's original .:)

[JAFFA]

See if you can get a SSM V1 (mk6) manual it is pretty much the same internally, and the shiming and backlash procedure is the same.
Regards

[Droll]

Looks like a Mk 1 box, youll find reassembly all most the same as the mk 6, so if you can get a manual for that it should lead you in the right direction. Incidently if it is a mk 1 the mk 6 gears will fit so you can get new ones. The mk6 gears are stronger than the old ones (14/14)
Good luck

Are these the gears you are refering to ?? #43-815488A1 (GEAR SET-14:15 ), it's used on the SST-120/S2000/S3000/Formula 1 ( ssm VI ) .

This lower unit shares :
Spacer #23-38661 ( between gears )
Rear bearing #31-32575A1
NUT (5/8-18) #22339 ( front nut prop shaft )

Still looking for some info about the the shimming proceedures +++;)


Arne Kjetil

[Droll]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAFFA
Looks like a Mk 1 box, youll find reassembly all most the same as the mk 6, so if you can get a manual for that it should lead you in the right direction. Incidently if it is a mk 1 the mk 6 gears will fit so you can get new ones. The mk6 gears are stronger than the old ones (14/14)
Good luck
Are these the gears you are refering to ?? #43-815488A1 (GEAR SET-14:15 ), it's used on the SST-120/S2000/S3000/Formula 1 ( ssm VI ) .

This lower unit shares :
Spacer #23-38661 ( between gears )
Rear bearing #31-32575A1
NUT (5/8-18) #22339 ( front nut prop shaft )

Anyone ??

Still a work in progress, only missing one part at this moment.... the propshaft seals.
Anyone got an number/brand of a compatible seal ??, I am living in a metric country :) , finding a metric seal are easy, but finding a inch size seal over here :( .

Have found a nice manual that's usable on my LU, it's for the newer ssm VI, but should work :cool: .


Arne Kjetil

[JAFFA]

The merc part no for the prop shaft seals is 26-60109A1 which is the orginal no and may have been superseded. Any way try at your local merc shop as many seals are used on other motors, and it could still be available. Let me know if you cant get any as I have 2 which I may part with.

[baldad45]

I checked out that part # last night ,nla no superseed . Can you measure your seals inside ,outside and thickness and I'll look for a match here in Canada ? Anyone else have a match ? Thanks Glen.

[Droll]

Found this seal from SKF (http://www.skf.com)( see attachment ), might work ??

Can chose between 2 different lip materials
P =Polyacrylate elastomer (http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalogue/maincatalogueForwarder?maincatalogue=1&newlink=4_0_25&lang=en), ***They should not be used to seal against water, acids or alkalis etc.
V =Fluoro rubber (http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalogue/maincatalogueForwarder?maincatalogue=1&newlink=4_0_27&lang=en), guessing this is the winner .

Measures:
D1 = 1.000"
D2 = 1.375" BUT the diameter tolerance are: high +0,016", low +0,006" :)
b = 0.250" , might be a challenge here, only got 0.430" and 2 X 0.250" = 0.5"



Measured the case and prop shaft today:
Shaft = 1.00"
Case = 0.380"
Total space for seals = 0.430" /2 = 0.215" pr seal .


I checked out that part # last night ,nla no superseed

BIG surprise:( ...I got 2 different parts manuals for the speedmaster

#26-60109 superceded to #26-60109A1 NLA ( Twister IIX 1974 manual )
#26-60110 superceded to #26-60109A1 NLA ( Twister IIX 1974 manual )
#26-38676 superceded to #26-55979 NLA ( ssm 1965 manual )
#26-38677 superceded to #26-55979 NLA ( ssm 1965 manual )
I "think" they were the same, or were there a difference between those speedmasters ?? ( shaft I.D or case O.D)


Arne Kjetil

[baldad45]

Arne ,check out epm.com ,they have a 1.000 x 1.375 x 0.187 also will do custom seals to your specs.Another site to check anyseals.com they have the same size seal , also prices.

[Droll]

Still a work in progress :rolleyes:.

Have found all parts and then some.....
Have manged to get hold on a service manual....

But I still got some questions....many of the parts used on this old ssm are still in use on the later ssm VI...

Take a look at this picture..
http://home.online.no/~arnekd/ssm/ssm_water_pump.jpg
Top part are from the OLD ssm ( rubber valves not shown )
Lower ones are from the ssm VI ( no rubber valves ).

Are there any problems using the later water pump on the old ssm ??
Second....would there be any problems if I used the pump cover with the larger output ( for the 3/4" tube ), replacing the original tube all the way up ....got some plans for a "special" inline 6 .....

Arne Kjetil

[Raceman]

Still a work in progress :rolleyes:.


Are there any problems using the later water pump on the old ssm ??
Second....would there be any problems if I used the pump cover with the larger output ( for the 3/4" tube ), replacing the original tube all the way up ....got some plans for a "special" inline 6 .....

Arne Kjetil

If you notice where the waterpump cover is machined off leaving the cylinder that the impeller rides in exposed, I think this was done for clearance in the mid. You might want to slip the cover on the driveshaft and trial fit it in the mid to see if you have to clearance the mid in that area.

[JAFFA]

check the rotation of the stainless plate, mk 6 usally is left hand, you can panel beat it right or buy a new one.

[Droll]

You might want to slip the cover on the driveshaft and trial fit it in the mid to see if you have to clearance the mid in that area.
Got some of each, will use the one with the best fit :)

P.S still looking for a service manual for the SSM units ?? ( including the old Super Speedmaster) .....guess what I got :cool:




check the rotation of the stainless plate, mk 6 usally is left hand, you can panel beat it right or buy a new one.
Yeah you're right , do you have the number on the right rotation plate ??

http://home.online.no/~arnekd/ssm/ssm_water_pump_2.jpg
Right one are Photoshoped...

[JAFFA]

Got these two numbers, but dont know which is left one and which is right, but a clue maybe in the nametag
70092 face plate cw
60927 face plate ccw
Hard to read the no's as photo copy is fading.
Give me your postal address and Ill copy this 6 manual and post it to you.
I reshaped a plate once before to run right and it worked fine.
cheers

[Droll]

Got these two numbers, but dont know which is left one and which is right, but a clue maybe in the nametag
70092 face plate cw
60927 face plate ccw
We can try Murphy's law :rolleyes:, one of the plates below are NLA......+ the 60927 are used on the FORMULA 1 engines carb & efi ( ccw ).

#70092 FACE PLATE NLA
#60927 FACE PLATE $41.05
#8485211 FACE PLATE $45.94 ( the one in my picture... )

Just my luck:rolleyes:



Hard to read the no's as photo copy is fading.
Give me your postal address and Ill copy this 6 manual and post it to you.
Check you PM box.


I reshaped a plate once before to run right and it worked fine.
Can't see why it wouldn't work, got a new plate so :thumbsup:....
Gonna make another hole for the dowel pin too.


Arne Kjetil

[JAFFA]

Dont know if you can turn it over as water slots my not line up, you need to turn lips on edges out the other way I think?