Time to get the sled out!

[PaulR]

Click on the teaser video in the center of the page! Crazy Canadians!!


http://www.sledporn.com/media/videos/SP5_Web_Teaser.wmv

[vector mike]

It's been 20 years since I've been on those and I sure do miss it. :(

[10.5' Tunnel]

BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAP:cool:

[skidoodave]

I love those vid's.:) :) :) :)

[Better Toys]

It's been snowing pretty good lately. FINALLY... I have had the Hawk out a few times now. A whole different ride. If you get a chance to try one, it will change what you want to ride.

[lakerider8]

Leaving next week for the UP. The old ZRT800 is eager to get wrung out again.... You gotta love a frozen lake 5 miles long. If you cant get out boating at least you dont have to wither away inside in the winter if you like sleds. 100 mph with your butt 12 inches off the ground is a rush. Hitting a tree at 40 sucks!!! But every year I get out there again. Have the 2.4 Merc on the bench so I may as well smell that 2 stroke exhaust any way I can!

[luvgoing fast]

What year is your ZRT 800? How is it on Fuel?

[lakerider8]

My 800 is jetted lean and when trail riding I use the same amout of gas as a friends MXZ 580 SkiDoo. I only get nervous on my jetting when riding in below 0 conditions. I haven't checked the MPG. I could this weekend but probably will not think of it!! Triple cylinders and triple pipes,cant beat the sound...

[Better Toys]

I built a real nice yamaha srx triple triple for a friend. It has been sold for a few years now but it was quite a threat on scugog. It's best run was 126 in 800 feet. My friends brother owns it now and he has not maintained it as well as it should have been. We took down a Mach Z two years ago at Deerhurst with it 5 runs in a row. To the ski doo owners dismay. It sure did sound like a great machine though.

[luvgoing fast]

Just see What milage you get to the tank. That all i would liek to know. I am in the market for a new sled.:)

[jphii]

Question for the sled boyz. Anybody know where you can go (like a "resort" or something like that) and rent a sled that goes faster than 60? We tried to put a trip together last year but all of the "resorts" that do that that I could find rent lame sleds.

[DoktorC]

I built a real nice yamaha srx triple triple for a friend. It has been sold for a few years now but it was quite a threat on scugog. It's best run was 126 in 800 feet. My friends brother owns it now and he has not maintained it as well as it should have been. We took down a Mach Z two years ago at Deerhurst with it 5 runs in a row. To the ski doo owners dismay. It sure did sound like a great machine though.

126? mph? That's no trail sled....Those are open mod type speeds.

Mach Z's are easy pickin's, stock SRX's have been killing them for years. I remember my brother running 6 or 8 of the millenium ed. ones back in 2000 in North bay. He must of had 10 sleds on them in 2000 feet. Those guys get PISSED when some kid hands them there ass lol.

[skydog]

Yea can not wait to run the Turbo sled Sunday on the ice. Man what a rush at 16lbs of boost the new fourstrokes are unreal!! 285+ hp And good gas mpg to boot! She will run 145+mph top end too!! HAHA What a blast!!

Skydog P.S. Man i sure dont miss the two smoke days! SX,SRX,T-cat,F7------

[Better Toys]

The SRX ran trails every weekend for 4 years. We could have pumped more from her if maintaining trailability was not a requirement. This was one of the newer 04 Mach z's, but it was the same result. The owner just kept shaking his head in wonderment. How could that little sled leave my on the line by five or six lengths, then me the whole lake I am sure were his thoughts. It was fun to watch. I have ported a few of the 4 strokes for friends as well with great success. Mostly street bikes but the rx1 we did rocked pretty good. It is fun to watch them run. We test fit for a supercharger on one of the four strokes several years ago back when no one really did either turbo' s or superchargers on them. We have a few turbo sleds now in our group. They are nice machines. A little heavy for my style riding, but watch them go on the lakes. I have owned a few REVS but the only sled I have not sold is the snowhawk. Not quite as fast on the lake, but what a rush on the trails (and ditches.. ) You guys must have better gas there. We only have 91 at the pumps. Much above the 240 horse setting we get a little detonation. My neighbour just down the lake has been the record holder on and off. Tom McKonkeny. He lost his record of 172.2 last year so has has made a bigger weapon this year for the nationals. I see him out testing at times.
What a weapon. Well, keep your ski's snow side..

[skydog]

Yea the new 07 Apex RTX is unreal in the trails man! Love it!!

[PaulR]

Heading to the "UP" this weekend! With the lack of snow it will be the first time out for my Hooper/Speedwerx 1000cc KING CAT!!

I got it up to 97.3mph GPS out on my lake! Not bad considering I'm turning a 162" 2 1/4" paddle track!!

[Better Toys]

Just counting the mods in the picture. Looks great, I have heard of a few Hooper motors in the past. It looks like a fun ride. You need to bring it up to my area. We have had a couple feet of snow in the last week and a half. You could put those paddles to use. One of the fields we were in last weekend had almost 3 feet. Not the best place to come to a complete stop. I think you might be ok though.

[DoktorC]

The SRX ran trails every weekend for 4 years. We could have pumped more from her if maintaining trailability was not a requirement. ..

It wasn't so much the 126 as it was the 800 feet. We ran 660 and our Improved Viper only runs around 102 and it's got about as much hp as you can get from a Yamaha 700. Either way..as long as you're beating up on BRP product you've got your priorities straight! I'm glad to hear about the snow. We're actually sledding south this weekend since there is no snow between Parry Sound and North Bay! This is a first for us lol.

[Better Toys]

It wasn't so much the 126 as it was the 800 feet. We ran 660 and our Improved Viper only runs around 102. You have me thinking now. I will have to ask the guys to see if they remember. I thought it was 800 foot runs but it might have been 1000 feet those runs. I am a BRP fan. (Oh) But man could that yamaha hook up. It would kick my 800 REVs ass big time and it was modified pretty good as well. Rolling start was very close. One of those must modify people. The Hawk has a modified 800 in it now as well. It makes for a much more interesting ride. The deerhurst area has much more grooming equipment but I dont think they have received as much snow as this area. The area between coldwater to midland, up to gravenhurst and across to honey harbor. It looks like the groomers have finally been out so they should be pretty good now to. I am north of coldwater (20km) on MacLean lake (Glauster Pool) area. What are you riding? (summer and winter)

[DoktorC]

Summer - 06 Apex GT, 02 Bender Improved Viper both are primarily grass sleds but we usually run the World Series of Ice in the Sault for fun.

Winter - 05 RX-1 with some minor mods and hopefully a turbo for next season. I'm trying to decide if I want that much tuning and worrying about good fuel...or if I just want to ride. I'm the same way about mods...I can't seem to leave anything alone!!

[skydog]

Winter - 05 RX-1 with some minor mods and hopefully a turbo for next season. I'm trying to decide if I want that much tuning and worrying about good fuel...or if I just want to ride. I'm the same way about mods...I can't seem to leave anything alone!!


DO IT TRUST ME!!

[lakerider8]

Paul, Where you staying in the UP? We are staying in Ironwood. Riding north and east from there. Hope the trails are good this year.

[PaulR]

I'll be Gwinn, just south of Marquette. I have friends that live there but I guess the snow is thin.

Looks like upstate NY is the place to be. 77+ inches of lake effect since Sunday...That just crazy!! Would be great for the longtrack!!

[Better Toys]

Summer - 06 Apex GT, 02 Bender Improved Viper both are primarily grass sleds
Winter - 05 RX-1 with some minor mods
I am guessing you have ridden your apex on the snow as well. The new apex could make a believer out of me.
I replaced the suspension brackets that my friend broke on his sled last weekend tonight. Some new grips, risers and clutching again on the Hawk. Then went for a rip on the lake. There is about 1 and a half feet of snow over about a foot of slush. Don't gas off. Full throtle is about 50km.
We went and watched a few grass drags this summer for some fun. Some of the sleds went pretty quick.
Well have a great weekend on the trails.

[lakerider8]

Just got back from the UP today. Trails were good overall. Hit one from Silver City,Mi to Wakefeild,Mi that jarred your teeth for 35 miles with no way to get off it.. But overall very good for this seasons snowfall. Lake Goegebic was smooth and flat for mile after mile. I checked my mileage and jetted like I am and running pretty hard all weekend I averaged around 13mpg. Most was winding trails on and off the gas alot. Lots of brake too! General touring would be better , but my sled isn't made for fuel economy. If anyone is headed up WATCH THE CORNERS they are very icy and some look good and as you round the apex they turn to ice! Thank God for good carbides and picks,or you can easily kiss a tree. We rode 156 miles Fri, 258 on Sat,and 132 Sunday . Scott

[10.5' Tunnel]

My buddy has a 95' zrt 800 and its just as bad on gas as any other 800 triple. Conditions here are great, I put 350 miles on this past weekend just hitting the trails around my house:cool:

[Juggernaut]

126? mph? That's no trail sled....Those are open mod type speeds.i'm gona have to disagree with that. there are stock sleds that will run up to and beyond 130 mph. ive hit 135 on a polaris indy 700 triple. conditions were perfect tho.. the real problem is; do you have the distance to hit that speed, and is the trail soft, packed, rough, smooth, and air temperature.

[DoktorC]

Well...disagree if you want..but 126mph in 800 feet is faster then any trail sled..even ones with turbos (right skydog). It may be possible on a stock SRX (a sled that would make the XCR700sp look like a 500) to run that speed given enough lake and no wind (or alittle wind at your back). 135mph...not without 180hp (probably more) and your previously stated PERFECT conditions and perfect setup and low...

I'm reasonably familiar with sleds...I'm the crew cheif/manager/sled waxer for a factory Yamaha drag race team. We also do alot of radar running...and we sled 12 months of the year.

[skydog]

YEa he is WAY WAY out there on that one sorry!!
Skydog

[Better Toys]

Hey,
I still have not talked to the guys to confirm the distance. I was planning to ride with them by now but I blew the track last friday night. New one comes tomorrow. By the way, there was nothing stock about the SRX. It was ported well, balanced, pipes retuned, clutched well, low friction bearings, modified suspension. We gained about 20 MPH in the same distances over what we had achieved as a stock machine. Even stock it was quite quick. Should be riding with them on wednesday. I will let you know.

[DoktorC]

I heard you had some track troubles. Where do you get parts for one of those?

BTW...I'm not doubting the SRX speed...

[skydog]

Well Sunday in 1000' The new Mach Z,T-cats,Big Bore F7 With NOS,Full mod700 Srx where all running from 85-99mph! :) :)

Skydog

[skidoodave]

That seems little slow for those sleds unless the temp was 50' F. My old 98 mach 1 700 tripple will run 107mph consistantly in 1000 ft with my fat ass on it. I know the new Mack z had major clutch problems last year but I was told that was all taken care of. Hell even my old 583 mach would turn 96 in the 1000 with no problems

[themdshrk69]

Question for the sled boyz. Anybody know where you can go (like a "resort" or something like that) and rent a sled that goes faster than 60? We tried to put a trip together last year but all of the "resorts" that do that that I could find rent lame sleds.well you could stay at my B&B ine the Adirondaks,(check us out at bearinthetree.com)and rent sleds from village rental in Speculator www.villagerentalsny.com (http://www.villagerentalsny.com) he rents ski-doos and yamahas up to 120hp,I'm sure that will go faster than 60.The conditions are great here and we are expecting to get 3' or more tonite into wednesday from this nor'easter.you can also call me at 315-826-5614 and I'll be glad to answer any questions we are about 2.5 hrs north weat of Albany NY. in southern Hamilton county in the adirondaks.About 30 miles north of where the Rondack Romp is held.

[themdshrk69]

i'm gona have to disagree with that. there are stock sleds that will run up to and beyond 130 mph. ive hit 135 on a polaris indy 700 triple. conditions were perfect tho.. the real problem is; do you have the distance to hit that speed, and is the trail soft, packed, rough, smooth, and air temperature.What were you smoking that day:eek: :eek: :eek: .I have been around sleds a long time and always ride with gps,sled speedos are always off by alot.my 900 cat sno-pro runs 104 on gps with only clutch work turning a 121"x1.38" paddle. fastest stock 900 not a sno pro with a 1" track hieght was 107mph and the fastest sled i've seen using my gps was a mach z 1000 turning 110mph. just to show you how off speedo's are when I'm doing 104 may speedo needle is in the 6 o'clock position and my speedo stops at 100 in the 4o'clock position (needle is pegged):cool: :cool: If that polaris 700 hits 135 stock bring it on because I got a hundred dollar bill says I can smoke you down my lake.

[skidoodave]

Just another note, my mach runs neck and neck with a 99 MXZ 670 HO (124.5 hp out of the box). We both ran the 107 in the 1000 on radar three time each, watched an F7 run mid 1 teens on the same track. Also ran my 700 on a warm day with sticky snow and it would only turn into the high 90's on radar. By the way the radar gun used was Toronto police issued and certified. In absolute perfect conditions, and unlimited lake in Parry Sound ON, I could only hit 183 kph (112mph) on the speedo.

[WARLOCK]

We were in St Germain Wi a couple of weeks ago and some guy pulled onto the ice with a RX1 Turbo with juice and ran a 139mph and backed it up with a 141 mph in 660ft. This thing looked like he had an ice shredder behind him. I guess he runs in the quarter on asphalt in the summer and ran 7.98 @171mph. He said he will build anyone the same sled for 50g's. I've also been around sleds all my life and this one one of the coolest things I've seen. Later, Dave

[DoktorC]

That would be Jeff Simons...the sled is badass.

[pyro]

My friend Jason (in photo) and I enjoyed some of our best riding ever yesterday. Covered about 150 miles of trails, and some off-trail powder riding.

[WARLOCK]

That would be Jeff Simons...the sled is badass.
Yea, thats the guy. I forgot his name. That thing is WICKED!! Later, Dave

[skydog]

Yea well two things are track was shorter or your track was longer.

Skydog

[PaulR]

What were you smoking that day:eek: :eek: :eek: .I have been around sleds a long time and always ride with gps,sled speedos are always off by alot.my 900 cat sno-pro runs 104 on gps with only clutch work turning a 121"x1.38" paddle. fastest stock 900 not a sno pro with a 1" track hieght was 107mph and the fastest sled i've seen using my gps was a mach z 1000 turning 110mph. just to show you how off speedo's are when I'm doing 104 may speedo needle is in the 6 o'clock position and my speedo stops at 100 in the 4o'clock position (needle is pegged):cool: :cool: If that polaris 700 hits 135 stock bring it on because I got a hundred dollar bill says I can smoke you down my lake.


I'd like to second that!! NO WAY that "stock" 700 went 135...NO WAY!! I just picked up a used "stock" '03 F7 that we spent a night clutching for informal 600ft hard pack drag racing, but I took it out on the lake and legged it out for about a mile and the best it would do is 105 on my GPS. I'm going to try a few different cams to see if I can get a few more MPH out of it as guys claim F7's run in the low teens, but I don't see that happening and I'd be willing to bet this F7 has more HP than that 700 tripple and weights 100bs less!

[eli]

its amazing how many stock sleds run 120+mph on the wish o meter, 2 years ago when the rx1 ton came out everyone that oned one claimed 120+ out of it, bone stock ,one night at the sayner pub in sayner wis ,there were 6 of them braggin and pickin on the doo's pol'cat in the bar,well i,m here to tell ya when we got across plum lake the four strokes were dead last about a 2 mi run, i raced them with a ported,lifted cyl,stockpipe,geared 00 mxz700 my gps was 115,even my step sons mxz6 with porting wipped them, i let off 4 times so they could catch up they thought they were gaining on me so i would gas her again and leave them. i have respect for the turbo anything tho,it was fun :)

[Better Toys]

Hey, The snow hawk parts I get directly from AD Boivin. I just put on the 07 136" track and extenders. We were supposed to ride today but never made it out. I was working on my friends RX 1 again. We put a new track on it as well from the same slush out front. After getting it all back together my friend called and said it was still wratcheting. I don't know what it could be except possibly the actual drive cogs spinning on the shaft itself. Anyone have any experiance with this?
There is a lot of hidden potential in ANY sled (motor). Just remember there is always some sacrofice to get it. Manufacturers built to the optimium in power with the most reliability don't forget. To get the first 8-10% is usually a joke with only little sacrofice and time requirements. Every percent from there takes progressivly longer. It took us hours of machining,(I would speculate 35-40 hours in the evenings) and many more (It felt countless) hours of tuning (I would think about 20 hours in pipe calculations cutting and rewelding several times) to get the power and RPM we were aiming for then get it to the ground. There was more in the motor I am certain, but it was already borderline drag sled and we needed to keep trailability. There is a product called TK7 only availably in the US that I go through several gallons of a year. It is a kept secret umongst racing enthusiasts, but it is the best fuel additive available for anyone modifying their stuff or just looking for some extra safety margin. I have heard of several motors running the whole season without troubles at head pressures approaching 165 PSI on 91 octane with the additive. Anyone must agree that is impressive. That is another 10 horse right there on the 700 if you wanted. We left that kind of pressure out of our equasion for our build. Before we started the sled topped out on radar at about 106-107 stock. It kicked my mxz 800's ass to be truthful and I had already done some work on it in preperation for racing my friend during the summer. The initial track length to ice surface, and suspension set up made it much more suited for transfering power to the ground. (However, I kicked his ass so badly in rougher conditions on the trail, well payback was SWEET) Anyways, my riding style is aggressive on the trails and I could not justify two sleds to have one that was as fast on the lakes. My friend had the desire and money for the parts we needed and was more than willing to donate his sled for the transformation. I was just as proud watching him race as if it was my own sled anyway. Anyways, his back could not take it anymore and he too had to switch to a better trail sled, APEX last year as well. He sold all the degree charts, port mapping, CC's, piston modifications, internal balancing with the motor. I am doing it all again right now to my voo-doo motor (70 johnson) I could post some pictures to help show the differences over stock if anyone is interested.

[DoktorC]

What year is the RX? I've got LOTS of experience with that sled...If it's the old style proaction skid check the transfer rods...they may be set for too much transfer. That causes too much slack in the track under acceleration and they skip.

[Better Toys]

the RX1 is a 2005, the track just started wratcheting the same day he tore the track on the slush on friday.

[Better Toys]

we tightened up the large main spring to the max (both on the spring and on the cam) when we put in the new front w last wednesday. Could that have done it? The transfer spring was tightened inenvertantly when this was done as they work as opposing forces. ?? You think that could be it?

[Better Toys]

Just called my friend for the real symtoms. He says it wratches off the start even without much throtle. I have not driven it yet myself to feel where it might be. He lives just down the road from me and left once the track was installed to get a few things done. It was wratcheting from just before the track swap so that is why I was thinking cogs.

[DoktorC]

I have the same sled...the newer mono shock skid isn't really bad for ratcheting if the tension in set right. Is it possible the track is just too loose. Like the track wasn't seated in the drivers right initially..or the adjuster bolts are eff'd from losing the track. I run max transfer all the time and haven't had it skip yet..so I'd just give it a once over.

It's funny..I found my front arm broken in 6 spots last saturday morning...I missed a whole day riding while I welded it back together...

[Better Toys]

That front arm seems to take a beating on that sled. The track is on true. That is why I am cunfused. I map the track adjustment several times while adjusting it, run it up several times then use micrometers to confirm trueness so that it runs as true as possible over a large range of RPM. It is good for a least a MPH and this is one thing my friends cares about. You know since he rides mostly with me and my sled tops out around 80 I give him great competition... smile. I will check the track again when it he comes over. I dont remember if the primary gear in the chain case is splined. The secondary was for sure. However I am sure I would have seen damage on the gear while in the parts washer. I don't know...

[skidoodave]

I would put it up om a lift and check the track tension. Refer to the owners manual or ask around what the spec is. For my Doo it's 9/16 max at 16lbs pull using a fish scale right at the center of the slide rail. Sounds like the first track was stretched which caused ratheting and ultimatly failer of the track. The new track just sounds like it is out of adjustment but check the drivers to be sure they're not F'd.. Remember to have the rear wheel axle bolts slightly loose so that when you tighten the adjuster bolts the rear axle actualy moves, once tension is set then tighten up the rear axle bolts.

[DoktorC]

1 3/8" with 22lbs...

The front arm does take a beating but the new updated one is much stronger. I find that the sled rides too well at "too fast" and you end up hurting the sled and not your body lol...you don't know when to slow down anymore.

And...I'm not biting on the 80mph comment lol...

[Better Toys]

When we pulled the front arm out of the sled I shook my head as I knew I could have welded it easily and I made my friend go buy one. On the other hand when ever anything goes wrong on any of my friends sleds it is in my shop for me to fix. It seems like half my riding time is spent fixing sleds and most arn't mine. Then again, I like riding with the guys when we are riding. I hope the new arm is stronger. We call this guy the yamaha poster boy, as there is no way that that sled was made for the way he rides it. What a beating.


The track is set at spec right now (or pretty close), I anticipated it would stretch a little bit pretty quickly. We would run the tracks a smidge loose only when we race for top speed.

With the shape of the trails sometimes, most do not like them and then with todays sleds it is easy to go to fast in those conditions. It is one of the few times when I actually have the fastest sled. I usually hunt for the roughest trails. All the bump asorbtion is linear in my sled, like riding a motocross. Accelerates like a rocket ship in the bumps. Studded 2 inch paddles. Take me to a lake, and people are usually waiting for me on the other side. That 80 is my top speed, I cannot sustain it. So lakes are more like 50-60 cold and boring and I am a speed freak.

[Better Toys]

If you guys are ever looking for someone to ride with, we usually have a pretty good group and always the core riders.

[skidoodave]

Thanks for the invite. That your Jeep?

[Better Toys]

It used to be. I built it about 10 years ago, sold it about 7. I was just looking for pictures for an avitar. If you want to ride, just let me know and I will let you know where and when, it is a good group of guys. Boats, toys, sleds. Lots in common.

[skydog]

((((I'd like to second that!! NO WAY that "stock" 700 went 135...NO WAY!! I just picked up a used "stock" '03 F7 that we spent a night clutching for informal 600ft hard pack drag racing, but I took it out on the lake and legged it out for about a mile and the best it would do is 105 on my GPS.))))))))


Right on the money!!!!

Skydog

[Better Toys]

When we ported the srx we altered the power curve pushing the power higher in RPM as well as the maximum RPM available. We had two clutching set up's that we carried with us, one for the lake runs and one to load up the sled more to keep it trailable. We always ran taller than stock gearing in it. 600 feet is for sure a shorter run and should be geared lower for better results. I have a whole slue of studd patterns here that we made ourselves, trying to get as many scratches as possible for traction. The traditional patterns are ok but the scraches tend to repeat at most every 6 to 8 paddles. We have made one here that the scratches are repeating at 16 paddles. It looks weird on the track but traction is traction. You can do it yourself to see what I mean. Scale it down, take a piece of paper the width of your track and draw lines in 1/4 inch increments. Lay your studd pattern onto it as dots and count the number of lines and spaces between the lines you actually scratch. You will find it a little dissapointing I am sure. Now make your own pattern to scratch all the lines and all the spaces. It is pretty easy and will almost double your real ice traction. We have also found that every time you increase your track lug height by 1/4 inch for snow traction you will lose 3-4 MPH top end for sure. I am sure a lot of people will confirm that. We found less variance between long and short tracks but there is still some. SO, to the point, to make a fast ice-hardpack sled, a lower paddle height is required, weight transfer to the track, maximium traction (scratches), the appropriate gearing for the distance, clutching power and don't forget the guts to do it.

The F7 is a pretty strong sled out of the box. Suzuki seems a little more willing to push the power out of the motors than most manufactures from factory. There might be another mile or two there but I think you are pretty much on the money.

[ProComp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m27BXVNymI&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF0oAZWVhp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4lDtcPgTwY&NR

[skydog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icIXQx8UxcE

My sled!! BOOST!!!!!!!!! AT 15PSI about 275HP!

[Better Toys]

It turned out to be the drive coggs. They are worn what only appears as slightly on the leading edge's. The sum of that wear allows the coggs to contact slightly higher on the track pins during rotation (especially at slow speeds). As the track rotates it loads and snaps in and out of proper position. It only happens noticably on starts of slow accereration. (I know it does not go away completely) but he says it does under hard acceleration and at speed. I hope the drive lasts his driving for the season duration. Anyone seen this before and have any idea on it's longevity? Track tension was within 1/8" of the specs DoktorC gave, Thanks.

[Better Toys]

Hey, Back to the 126 run I talked to the guys today, and they remember it being posted as a 1000' run and pacing it off afterwards and it actually being closer to 1100-1200 feet as the sled had time to max out.

[pro5oguy]

want to trade my 2000 polaris xc 700 twin with some nice hop ups for a 150 or more merc, or maybee somebody to repair my lower unit and some other things