PDA

View Full Version : Optimax to be phased out?



blkmtrfan
08-17-2006, 10:32 AM
I was reading the new Powerboat this morning and there is an interview from the Mercury engineer (Claus Bruestle) that came form Porsche to work on the Verado design team and hes is quoted as saying the following:



So what type of products might we see from Mercury in the next 10 years?




We certainly will see engines that are way more fuel efficient than the engines we make today. That will come by applying available technology to make them more efficient. Certainly, we will get more power out of the same embodiments, the same packages, and better system integration. We'll probably see direct fuel-injection two strokes disappear in the next 10 years. And we'll see the application of catalysts to outboards fro meeting emission requirements. We're already working on that with Mercruiser and a leading catalyst company


That seems to be different from what we have been hearing from the other Mercury guys :confused: :confused:

So Jimmyb and Stinky, what is your position on this?

sosmerc
08-17-2006, 10:55 AM
I'm not surprised to read that comment coming from someone so deeply tied to the success or failure of Verado! What possible interest would he have in Optimax?
In my opinion it would be a BIG mistake for Merc to drift away from Optimax now that they have the bugs worked out. There still isn't a 4 stroke outboard on the planet that can out-perform an Optimax in a "performance" application.

blkmtrfan
08-17-2006, 11:03 AM
I can see where the "4-stroke guy" would think that way, but to say it in a public interview ...

That is why I want to hear from our "2-stroke guys"

Stinky
08-17-2006, 11:08 AM
That seems to be different from what we have been hearing from the other Mercury guys :confused: :confused:

So Jimmyb and Stinky, what is your position on this?

I think the key points there are 10 years, and the word probably. Does anyone really know what the world will look like in 10 years??? For all we know, you won't be able to have gas on a waterway in ten years.

I know what I'm working on for the next 5 years, and its all good.:D

The race NEVER stops.:cool: However we do pit occasionaly.;)

David - WI
08-17-2006, 11:13 AM
"Probably"... "in the next 10 years" is hardly a statement of corporate policy.
Sounds like more of a subtle "jab" at the two-stroke guys than anything.

jimmyb
08-17-2006, 11:41 AM
all depends on the emission regulations... 10 years... that can be 3 presidents from now! please vote accordingly! :)

blkmtrfan
08-17-2006, 11:55 AM
Thanks for the replys guys and your are right "Probably" doesn't really mean anything, I was just supprised to read that he actually said it :confused:

us1ss
08-17-2006, 01:51 PM
On August 15, 2003 I was told the Optimax was going away. That was before the Verado fell short in many area's and applications after its release to the average consumer. It seems that Brunswick doesn't want all it's eggs in one basket and will continue the Opti until they have something else that is better.
You have to wonder if the money spent on the Verado campaign was spent on the Optimax where would we be now?

David - WI
08-17-2006, 02:03 PM
You have to wonder if the money spent on the Verado campaign was spent on the Optimax where would we be now?

Please don't say that anymore... it makes me cry. $100 million? :(

Stinky
08-17-2006, 02:39 PM
You have to wonder if the money spent on the Verado campaign was spent on the Optimax where would we be now?

:eek: :eek: :eek:



.

Jimboat
08-17-2006, 02:48 PM
There is likely a stir going thru Mercury currently, as the BRP 2-stroke technology has been very successful.

blkmtrfan
08-17-2006, 03:56 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:



.

You why don't you tell us what you really think Stinky or is that XSTech ;)

Fish
08-17-2006, 05:22 PM
There is likely a stir going thru Mercury currently, as the BRP 2-stroke technology has been very successful.

I think Mercury is laughing not stirring.:D :p

Thanks for chiming in Stinky.:)

150aintenuff
08-17-2006, 07:01 PM
all i know is ill be 2 steoke till i die... atlest for primary power... but also in my defence i still have the merc 8 that the yamaha replaced.

jimmyb
08-18-2006, 06:40 AM
as the BRP 2-stroke technology has been very successful.

dont believe everything you see on TV...

:)

BarryStrawn
08-18-2006, 07:42 AM
or read on the Internet.

1BadAction
08-18-2006, 11:50 AM
Why all the hatred for the verado? you scared of something you cant comprehend? :rolleyes: Even though its not aimed at the high perf market doesnt mean its worth any less. It obviously has made a bunch of $ for brunswick, cause they are like flies down here.

I respect things for being very comfortable, awesomely engineered, quiet and user friendly on a bigger hull. (verado)

or something that has a decent weight, great power, and ease of operating, while still being good for the environment (optimax)

or a motor that starts easily, Light weight, idles great, runs like a dream, and pushes an STV 110+ with no problem (2.5 280)

or a simple, cheap, reliable, good running fishin motor. (carbed steel bores)

what I dont respect is gay TV ads, BS sales pitches, and guys that hate something just because its not a 25 year old unreliable fuel guzzling 2stroke.

BarryStrawn
08-18-2006, 01:30 PM
Why all the hatred for the verado?

Like why you hate Hondas? :)

1BadAction
08-18-2006, 01:40 PM
I dont hate hondas, just the retards who put fart cannons on them. leave it up to you to bring something totally unrelated to the conversation :) you gonna call my mom ugly now? :rolleyes:

sho305
08-18-2006, 03:01 PM
I've read it quite a few times now that the 4 stroke people think the DI 2 stroke is just a temporary thing and the 4 strokes will take over soon. I am not sure if they think an old turbo or blower is going to instantly make the 4 stroke as good? (Like has been tried since before I was born) Or that maybe after spending billions on the 4 strokes in F1 racing and all the other development arenas that suddenly there will be an earth-shaking breakthrough to new heights in 4 stroke power levels?

I'm not sure, but I don't see it happening in a weight intensive application unless the DI 2 stroke can't make unrealistic emissions levels in the future...and get outlawed. Then we will just have slower boats.

Honda makes some of the best engines in the world, if anyone could make a fast and light outboard that was a 4 stroke...they could, but they don't or can't.

BarryStrawn
08-18-2006, 03:18 PM
I dont hate hondas, just the retards who put fart cannons on them. leave it up to you to bring something totally unrelated to the conversation :) you gonna call my mom ugly now? :rolleyes:

The fart cannons and paint/sticker jobs are idiotic. Just my opinion, but they remind me of quite a few hot boats that most everyone seems to ooh and aah about.:)

Never meet your mom. But if she is as expensive and overweight as a Verado, I sure don't want to.:eek:

obrien
08-18-2006, 09:42 PM
I wouldn't be able to stand the fuel comsumption of the verado. The 275s burn in the range of 40+ gph. That and they are way over weight.

Honda outboards are about as useful as their cars.

sho305
08-19-2006, 11:40 AM
That should be "untuned fart cannon." My rearend sounds a lot better than those cars do...:D It is funny; when I was a kid you better have a real quiet exhaust on your car unless it had a V8...then GM put that raspy muffler on their 2.8 V6 but you still got laughed at for anything else loud like a 4 banger. None of them could get any rpms back then anyway like say a rice rocket. A built boxer VW was cool sounding and that was about it. Any loud I4 was considered a winter beater if it was or not.

I had a grand am with a quad4 that would get 7K rpm. For a while I had a Monza muffler on it that sounded very nice and kind of half loud. It had two smaller straight through pipes indside it. I got it out of JCWhitney but they don't have them anymore and I can't find them except kits for specific cars, mostly European. It was a hair faster with it too.

Sorry to get off topic. I thought the Verado burned about the same as other like HP motors at WOT?? I know I helped make BBCs that ran even with blower BBCs and they took less gas in overall I/O use, but the blower came on harder in the midrange. Typically blowers don't get good MPG, but the electronic controls seem to help. Turbos are better, but not that good at low output (off boost) due to low compression...but variable cams help that on the new ones.

obrien
08-19-2006, 12:12 PM
I am going on the info I have from what we are looking at with the new Spectre 34/36 sport fish boats. I work for a company that is going to be supplying them with Yanmar diesel engines. We have done some fuel consumption comparisons. As long as you keep the boats under about 40-45 mph they get about 1 mpg. Anything over that and the engines drink fuel since they are really starting to make boost. They more or less have come to the conclusion that these engines burn in the 38-45 gph range.

sosmerc
08-19-2006, 01:36 PM
If you go to Boston Whaler's Website you can view performance tests on each of their hulls with different Mercury powerplants. You will see that the Verado burns alot more gas than an Optimax at WOT. Idle and midrange, they are very similar. The Verado does pack alot of punch off the line, often quicker to plane than Optimax rigs, but once on plan they seem to lag the 2 stroke. Top speed is comparable.
Overall the Verado has had a pretty successful launch. But it's not been perfect. Just visit www. veradoownerclub.com. And you will get a feel for the type of problems that have been occurring.

jtb
08-19-2006, 01:49 PM
Just visit www. veradoownerclub.com. And you will get a feel for the type of problems that have been occurring.
http://www.veradoclub.com
is this the one you are talking about?

sosmerc
08-19-2006, 06:33 PM
Yes, JTB, thanks for correcting my typo!
I visit there quite often just trying to get a feel for the kinds of problems folks are having. If there had been an optimaxownerclub.com back in the early days, well, let's just say the moderator would have had his hands full!!

jtb
08-19-2006, 06:42 PM
Yes, JTB, thanks for correcting my typo!
I visit there quite often just trying to get a feel for the kinds of problems folks are having. If there had been an optimaxownerclub.com back in the early days, well, let's just say the moderator would have had his hands full!!
ha I think you are right!
neat site, I can't believe the charges people are complaning about on there. $400 to $700 per engine for a 100 hour service:eek: :eek: Makes you love 2-strokes even more.

Markus
08-22-2006, 08:52 AM
There is likely a stir going thru Mercury currently, as the BRP 2-stroke technology has been very successful.

This is a serious question: Has it?

mad dan
08-23-2006, 07:47 PM
Optimax still burns less gas than any four stroke outboard on the market.Verado is not the only outboard with problems,I have had several honda.yamaha and suzuki powerheads fail.Mercury stands behind their product,even when its several months out of waranty.

David
08-23-2006, 07:59 PM
Years ago Honda tried to compete in motor cycle racing with 4 strokes against 2 strokes. Does anyone else remember the oval piston V4?

I'm just not sure what the Verado is for. Is it cheaper, lighter, or more fuel efficient than a small block Bravo?

Of course no one wants Bravos in an offshore fishing boat, so maybe that is the market. I think everyone hates it here because its not an S&F type motor and it came out at the same time the 2.5s went away. I don't hate the Verado but I'm no more likely to buy one than I am to buy a Cobalt bowrider.

sho305
08-24-2006, 11:13 AM
I think the Verado is a great idea if you are replacing an I/O and great for a lot of boat types like center consoles and such. Even on smaller family rigs it would work nicely instead of a V6 or I4 I/O. It has the bottom to get you on plane like an I/O, it takes less room out of the boat though you might lose that sundeck I suppose, and it is likely to be much lighter than a whole I/O setup though I have not compared that. You also have less instance or hassle of leaking and fumes/smells from the engine since its outside of the boat and plus you have the power steering so many want. On top of that I am not sure what difference it makes on those hulls, but everyone always complained about what was it...the X dimension? The OB puts the weight in the proper place right?

But yeah, it does very little for us small boat people. There is little to pick from that compares to old motors for light weight and proper application to a light hull. I been waiting to hear of someone running an ETEC V4 on an old hull just to see what it did in comparison to an old V4 or inline. They did have the 2.5XS for a short time, at least it could hit 100mph+ and thats not a bad first try (not bad at all!) for a turn key green performance motor....however I don't know where it went and people did not seem to embrace it. There is not much out there in a 2.5 and smaller that fits 15'-19.

I think DI 2 stroke is our only chance. Maybe if they fitted power steering to the V6 units they could sell better to the family crowd? I don't know, but I figure a smaller than V6 that could run 6800rpm like the 2.5XS did would not be that slow....and I doubt any 4 stroke can do that at a close weight. Even if you figure half the new 3.2 stroker, thats ~150hp out of the 115 motor...but it was not that light either. But its starting to look like it could be done. Excepting the blown Verado I don't see any of the 4 strokes raising their HP, it sure looks like they are stuck at what they got unlike the Optimax that keeps growing.

1BadAction
08-24-2006, 12:13 PM
the 200xs opti is good for close to 7k rpm and available with a 15" and sporty. it has been for almost 6 years now. I have seen a few allisons and one mirage with the 200xs and they all supposedly ran right around 100.


http://www.mercuryracing.com/_media/images/products/optimax200xs/large_optimax200xs.jpg

blkmtrfan
08-24-2006, 12:23 PM
Sho the problem with the Verado for the small family boat (that normally has a I4 or V6) is the cost, even a 150 Verado costs as much the whole typical package: 18' bowrider, I4 I/O, and trailer.

Markus
08-24-2006, 02:36 PM
Years ago Honda tried to compete in motor cycle racing with 4 strokes against 2 strokes. Does anyone else remember the oval piston V4?


OMC had V4s with oval pistons and oval bores long before the Japanese.

No, wait a second. Maybe it was just oval bores.

1BadAction
08-24-2006, 02:40 PM
OMC had V4s with oval pistons and oval bores long before the Japanese.

No, wait a second. Maybe it was just oval bores.

ROFLMAO

BarryStrawn
08-24-2006, 05:53 PM
OMC did have the oval bores before the Japanese. But Mercury still has them.:)

sho305
08-24-2006, 10:43 PM
I thought Honda said they could fit more/larger valves in there with the oval bore...it didn't last very long.

Blkmtrfan; you mean a 150 Verado cost more than a new bayliner I/O w/trailer? So thats why they are not on family boats....

(LOL, I said bayliner!)

blkmtrfan
08-25-2006, 07:43 AM
Yes Bayliner :D $10,995 for boat , motor, and trailer



2006 Bayliner 175
http://www.baylinerboats.com/boat_graphics/electronic_brochure/company12671/54095_p_t_360x240_image01.jpg

http://www.baylinerboats.com/runabouts.asp?modelid=54095&year=2006&reqtype=1,9,23


2006 Mercury Verado :

<TABLE width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=contact>
150
</TD><TD class=contact>
L Verado
</TD><TD class=contact>
$11,500
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=contact>
150
</TD><TD class=contact>
XL Verado
</TD><TD class=contact>
$11,605
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=contact>
150
</TD><TD class=contact>
CXL Verado
</TD><TD class=contact>
$11,925
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.stevensmarine.com/mercury-marine.php

1BadAction
08-25-2006, 07:50 AM
who would put a verado on a boat that has about $800 bucks worth of "fiberglass like" material in it... its like putting cognac in a sippy cup.

blkmtrfan
08-25-2006, 07:53 AM
Funny that you say that Jim, the first 150 Verado Repower I have seen, just a couple of weeks ago, was on a 18' Bayliner :p

1BadAction
08-25-2006, 08:01 AM
that poor motor. lol... well at least he cant "forget" to mix the oil with the gas and cook the motor like i seen a guy do to a 260 a couple months ago :cry:

150aintenuff
08-25-2006, 10:24 AM
scott dont forget to adjust stevens Marine prices down about 3K.... you can actually buy a motor from Jacos or ocean, ship it out here with the rigging harness and be cheeper than stevens retail price..... I get a 20% break from Stevens cost and it equals Jacos everyday prices.....

sho305
08-25-2006, 11:42 AM
I think that 175 Bayliner is made in Mexico? It was originally $9,995. I see the 16' is $5K more and comes with a 4 stroke 50hp Mercury? Even my old 85hp is not fast enough on a 16' by far, but it gets out of the water a lot more than the video of that 175 shows.

So you are saying its $8,500 for a Verado 150?

Hey 1BadAction, my bayliner has lots of fiberglass looking stuff in it...right out of a chopper gun. Thats what gives it that extra weight over say some light thing like a hydrostream.:D Some of that stuff is over 3/8" thick solid resin with a little chopper mat in it. It is an old thing though, I don't think the new ones are at all like that. See they saved weight by only having two 1"x4 stringers in the floor and none of that heavy core material all over the place....;)..lol:D..to try to make up for that heavy resin.

1BadAction
08-25-2006, 12:13 PM
they really would have gotten it right if they used the 2 stringers, a structural floor on top of those stringers, and 3/8" woven layup like action was doing way back in 79 :p