If you hate 4 strokes....this one's for you

[Ron V]

This excerpt is from the article "Why Boats Sink, Part One...Outboard Powered Boats" from the July 2006 "Seaworthy" magazine printed by Boat U.S.

"In the quest for better fuel economy and quieter running, many owners install new 4-stroke engines to replace the 2-stroke engines that came with the boat. But 4-stroke engines are often 10 to 20% heavier and will force a stern down further into the water - maybe far enough that the self-bailing cockpit scuppers are at the waterline. Rain or a forgotten cooler could be just enough to force the scuppers under and sink the boat."

It's what all of us living in the stone age have been saying all along, they're too damn heavy! LMAO!!

[David - WI]

The announcement from BRP that they would no longer offer 4-stroke outboards in North America was, to me, stunning... nobody else seemed to even notice! LOL


BRP launches an all Evinrude® E-TECTM line-up



BRP will no longer offer the Johnson 40-225 hp four-stroke engines in the North American market

(Sarasota, Florida, April 27, 2005) - Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. (BRP) announces the expansion of its Evinrude E-TEC outboard engine line-up. The 115-hp 60-degree V4 E-TEC is now joined by a 60-degree V6 platform available in 150, 175, and 200-hp. As of fall 2005, the Evinrude E-TEC line-up will go from 40 through 250 hp.

"The V4 and V6 constitute an important milestone toward completing our line-up," said Roch Lambert, vice president, general manager, Outboard Marine Engines. "This achievement allows us to no longer offer, in the North American market, the 40 to 225-hp Johnson four-stroke engines as of 2006. We firmly believe the Evinrude E-TEC family of engines are the best in the market," concluded Lambert.

The new compact, lightweight V4 and V6 engine platforms deliver the advanced features of all Evinrude E-TEC engines, offering excellent fuel economy and strong performance while providing cleaner emissions than four-strokes, no scheduled dealer maintenance for three years or 300-hours of use, industry-leading quality components, and unique BRP styling. The 130 and 200-hp engines feature an exclusive variable exhaust control valve that delivers more lowend power and top speed performance than ever before.

Evinrude E-TEC will now be available in in-line 2-cylinder 40, 50, and 60-hp; in-line 3-cylinder 75 and 90-hp; V4 115-hp; V6, 2.6 liter, 150, 150 HO,175, and 200-hp; V6, 3.3 liter, 200 HO, 225, 225 HO, and 250-hp models. As of 2006, the Johnson four-stroke line in North America, will only include 2.5, 4, 6, 9.9, 15, 25 and 30-hp engines. The 2.5-hp is a new addition to the line-up and will be available in early spring 2006. The Johnson carbureted two-stroke line-up will include 3.5, 9.9, 15, 90, 115, 150, and 175-hp models.

Evinrude E-TEC won the Clean Air Excellence Award from the US EPA earlier this month in Washington DC. This is the first time ever a marine engine has received this prestigious recognition for improving air quality and a safer boating environment, confirming that Evinrude E-TEC technology produces lower exhaust emissions including lower carbon monoxide emissions than four-stroke engines and meets stringent 2006 EPA, European Union (EU), and 2008 California Air Resources Board (CARB) 3-Star ultra-low emissions standards.

BRP, a privately-held company, is a world leader in the design, development, manufacturing, distribution and marketing of motorised recreational vehicles. Our portfolio of brands and products includes: Ski-Doo® and Lynx<SUP>TM</SUP> snowmobiles, Sea-Doo® watercraft and sport boats, Johnson® and Evinrude® outboard engines, direct injection technologies such as Evinrude E-TEC<SUP>TM</SUP>, Bombardier* all-terrain vehicles (ATV), Rotax® engines and karts.

www.brp.com (http://www.brp.com/)

[jtb]

I too am in the middle of a real pickle. I have a customer that blew one of his 1996 200 hp Yamaha on his 26 Regulator and wanted to repower with new HPDI’s. We soon found out that you can’t get any HPDI’s possibly until the end of the year! Our other option was to replace them with 4 strokes but we would have to change the Armstrong bracket to help with the buoyancy issue! $40,000 for bracket and engines

[Tampa Cat]

Even if the scuppers are under water they still might work.

[Markus]

The announcement from BRP that they would no longer offer 4-stroke outboards in North America was, to me, stunning... nobody else seemed to even notice! LOL

It seems like they could not get to an agreement with Suzuki who made the engines.

[jtb]

Even if the scuppers are under water they still might work.
it sinks the bracket

[jphii]

JT, tell that idiot that the Yami is only worth 100. I need the parts!!

[Alan Power]

This excerpt is from the article "Why Boats Sink, Part One...Outboard Powered Boats" from the July 2006 "Seaworthy" magazine printed by Boat U.S.

"In the quest for better fuel economy and quieter running, many owners install new 4-stroke engines to replace the 2-stroke engines that came with the boat. But 4-stroke engines are often 10 to 20% heavier and will force a stern down further into the water - maybe far enough that the self-bailing cockpit scuppers are at the waterline. Rain or a forgotten cooler could be just enough to force the scuppers under and sink the boat."

It's what all of us living in the stone age have been saying all along, they're too damn heavy! LMAO!!

We had two boats sink at our marina this year for that EXACT reason:rolleyes: I have pics somewhere :D

Alan

[sho305]

Two stroke has cleaner emissions than a four stroke? You mean its
GREENER ???
I wonder what the suv burning pro-nature folks have to say about that?

[Instigator]

I've read in yrs!!
Bout sick of hearing the 4 stroke fans try to explain away their weight issue (read, they're pigs!!).
I think I read in the B&W test that the Verado was 150 lbs heavier than the Opti w/fliuds and prop installed (real world) instead of "as advertised" DRY that they try and fool the buying market with :D :cool: :p ;) :eek: :) :rolleyes:
Wonder how the tree huggers feel about the 6 qts of oil floating to the surface after those pigs stop bubbling from the bottom :p
Thanks Ron, I owe you for that one!!
Gary

[baja200merk]

my uncle has a 200h.o. e-tec on his 22 whaler revenge and absolutally loves it! i was on it the other day, plenty of power to push the old pig and at idle the 200 is no louder then my 90hp suzuki work boat (we were comparin em stern to stern lol)
kevin

[David - WI]

Yes... I bleed BLACK blood and have been a Mercury fan since I was a kid; but while the E-TEC is an "Engineering" solution the Verado strikes me as a $100-million "Marketing" solution.

It seems like someone very high up at Mercury fell for "the sky is falling" cries from the two-stroke hating environmental/liberal press.

I give BRP all the credit in the world for having the confidence in their engineering & technical people to say, "we can build a clean two-stroke and we are going to do it".

An interesting side-note is that two-stroke street bikes were never "banned" by the EPA... you could build & sell one right now. The problem was that the technology required to meet the EPA emissions standards was too expensive... so they went away back in the early 1980's.


Federal standards for highway motorcycles were first established in the 1978 model year (see 42 FR 1126, Jan. 5, 1977). Interim standards were effective for the 1978 and 1979 model years, and final standards took effect with the 1980 model year. The interim standards ranged from 5.0 to 14.0 g/km HC depending on engine displacement, while the interim CO standard of 17.0 g/km applied to all motorcycles. The standards and requirements effective for 1980 and later model year motorcycles, which do not include NOX emission standards, currently remain unchanged from when they were established 25 years ago. Crankcase emissions from motorcycles have also been prohibited since 1980. The level of technology required to meet these standards is widely considered to be comparable to the pre-catalyst technology in the automobile. These standards, which resulted in the phase-out of two- stroke engines for highway motorcycles above 50cc displacement, achieved significant reductions in emissions.There are no current federal standards for evaporative emissions from motorcycles. The current federal exhaust emission standards are shown in Table I.D-1.<!--QuoteEnd-->
http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/public_lands_test/documents/fr/04/ja/15/fr15ja04-15.html

With EFI and clean-burning two-stroke oils, not to mention the latest catalytic convertor technology... any one of the motorcycle manufacturers could put a killer two-stroke bike on the street today. Basically, apply E-TEC technology to bikes, snowmobiles, PWC's, etc.

[Instigator]

Yes... I bleed BLACK blood and have been a Mercury fan since I was a kid; but while the E-TEC is an "Engineering" solution the Verado strikes me as a $100-million "Marketing" solution.

An interesting side-note is that two-stroke street bikes were never "banned" by the EPA... you could build & sell one right now. The problem was that the technology required to meet the EPA emissions standards was too expensive... so they went away back in the early 1980's.

With EFI and clean-burning two-stroke oils, not to mention the latest catalytic convertor technology... any one of the motorcycle manufacturers could put a killer two-stroke bike on the street today. Basically, apply E-TEC technology to bikes, snowmobiles, PWC's, etc.
Agreed on all fronts. I'm a BRP fan but hope with Mercs new 300XS coming out that maybe that's a sign that they ain't done w/2 strokes yet!
Keep hearing some pretty amazing "rumors" of E-techs in testing also and hopefully it will force Merc to also keep working.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your analogy on the Verado. Spent a shist pile of $$$ on something that's just "neat" but not really any better than exisiting hardware.
Couple months back I read an article in a cruising style of boat magazine and "they" were even saying that they were feeling like they were sold a bill of goods on the 4 stroke superiority B.S.
I was shocked to read that from a magazine with that kind of reader base.
I think we stop being so freagin brand loyal/prejudice and take a step back and look/watch/listen. This could get interesting ;)
On the street bikes, I bought a RZ 350 new in '85 and it was the last US 2 stroke street bike and came equiped with twin catalytic convertors! (Amazing what a difference a good set of pipes made beyond the 60 lb weuight loss:) )
We may not be dead yet though.
Remember back in the '80's Ford and Chrysler were both working on 2 stroke car motors and both had running prototypes. Important key here is the advancement in DI technoligy in the last 20 yrs!
Never say never:cool:
On a side bar, I saw a basser yesterday w/a 225 Honda w/a Sportmaster style gear case :D :p :eek: Wonder if it broke 70 :rolleyes:
Gary

[sho305]

I remember all the hoopla over direct injection 2 strokes! The automakers all wanted to check it out, blah, blah. Fact is only the OB manucaturers took DI and ran with it; got it to work. Now I wonder what else they might use it in. How about a pwc? Even a sled if they can make one smaller. And the larger ones....imagine a small car with a 3.2 stroker at 300+hp. How about a 6.4L V12 :D Rest assured, an American automaker will be the last to offer one if they do.

You would make a lot of rice rocket owners mad if you made a new bike that blew on by them, then again I don't know if they can handle much more power. But a lighter bike would be nice.

I don't know if the Verado was really a bad idea. I think there is a lot of expensive hardware there to pay for, so I wonder how it can compete with a simple 2 stroke. But I think it is ideal for say a larger fisher boat. Its a tiny I/O and they have the money to afford it to save them the room. If its reliable it seems to perform very well on those boats...but I don't think in its current form it will adapt well to smaller craft. Weight is still an issue and the DI 2 stroke does well there.

[Instigator]

I remember all the hoopla over direct injection 2 strokes! The automakers all wanted to check it out, blah, blah. Fact is only the OB manucaturers took DI and ran with it; got it to work. Now I wonder what else they might use it in. How about a pwc? Even a sled if they can make one smaller. And the larger ones....imagine a small car with a 3.2 stroker at 300+hp. How about a 6.4L V12 :D Rest assured, an American automaker will be the last to offer one if they do.

You would make a lot of rice rocket owners mad if you made a new bike that blew on by them, then again I don't know if they can handle much more power. But a lighter bike would be nice.
On a group of riders/owners that refuse to let the 2 stroke street/race bikes die.
One guy has a 500cc (that's 30 cu.in.) street/roadracer making over 150 HP! He has been going to the street bike shoot outs where they have one of the ride on dynos.
He made over 25 HP's more than the strongest 600 and I think 10 or 15 more than the strongest 750.
Won both classes two years in a row.
The new 1000cc 4 stroke F-1 bikes are making 250 HP's but the 500's were making over 200 before they were ruled out of existance (5 yrs ago!)for the same reason a 450cc 4 stroke is in the same class of Moto Cross as a 250 2 stroke!
Think how much the bike companys would be spending on racing/R&D if they could sell what they're racing like they do the 4 strokes????
How bout a 1000cc 250HP 2 stroke crotch rocket that weighs 360 lbs??
Hummhhhhh:cool:

[gofish7070]

Have the solution, Lets go back to the stackers run them for a while get everybody fired up and start the whole engineering process over again,,,,,,,,,,Gofish7070

[Instigator]

Have the solution, Lets go back to the stackers run them for a while get everybody fired up and start the whole engineering process over again,,,,,,,,,,Gofish7070
My ears are ringing, I can't hear a dammnn thing :p

[David]

The industry gossip back in the day (20 years ago?) was that the DI 2 strokes of the time could not pass the 100,000 mile durability/emissions tests.

There are a lot more DI cars coming out now. I wonder if they will give DI two strokes another look.

[Instigator]

The industry gossip back in the day (20 years ago?) was that the DI 2 strokes of the time could not pass the 100,000 mile durability/emissions tests.

There are a lot more DI cars coming out now. I wonder if they will give DI two strokes another look.
With $3. plus per gallon gas I want one of the DI VW Golf diesels that gets 40+ mpg instead of the econo boxs that are tiny,weak,noisy, don't handle and only get 32 - 35 mpg :cool:
On the 2 strokes, we can only wait and see. I know the big three were geeked because of the reduced packaging size of the 2 strokes compare to the 4's.

[sho305]

There is nothing like the ring of a good 2 stroke. My buddy fired up his 900cc Cat that is 150 hp stock, its a EFI triple. Then he fired up his 700cc Cat that is also 150hp factory he says...so what you think the 900 does with a go-fast kit?:D Go look on the PSI perfomance site and see if they still have that Genesis motor. It was SERIOUS HP. I think 300++.

Yeah, over 350hp and only 115lbs!!! http://www.psipowerinc.com/34697.htm
368hp with a 1800cc http://www.psipowerinc.com/34692.htm
I imagine they might not last long in a boat, but in a bike they would rule. Even if you cut a bunch of HP and rpm off for DI they still are wicked. Yeah, I see the price too...kinda like an OB.

[Jeff H]

Just had a friend ask, looking at a new Galstron OB E-TECH vs Volvopenta I/O, BOTH 120-130HP on the same hull, of coursre every one said go I/O "its better". The IO which is "supost to be cleaner and more fuel efficent" and it is 700lbs heaver for the same lenght of boat and same HP. Which do you think is better for MPG or skiing. the math does not work.

Jeff Houghtaling

[sho305]

It would be a great comparison for the new motors. Lots of people like the I/O because it steers easy (power steer), it has plenty of torque to pull skiers up fast, and they get pretty good mpg. I think they get better mpg at less than WOT speeds than the old carb 2 strokes by far in my experience. But the DIs are alot better there and seem to have better torque down low too.

[SCT]

Is there anybody in the "know" that knows how sales are for the Merc 4 stroke?

Did Ocean Outboard ever run there 32 Skater w/ 4 strokes? Speed?

[David - WI]

Is there anybody in the "know" that knows how sales are for the Merc 4 stroke?

Did Ocean Outboard ever run there 32 Skater w/ 4 strokes? Speed?

I don't know how sales are going, but I did notice that Optimax is mentioned in 5 of the top 10 new releases on Mercury's website... and Verado is mentioned once (only because it's "related" to the mid-range four-strokes, which are mentioned in article #10 out of 10).

http://www.mercurymarine.com/news
http://www.mercurymarine.com/product2

If that's not a big enough kick-in-the-nuts for Verado... it isn't even mentioned on the "About Mercury Marine" page... but OptiMax is!

http://www.mercurymarine.com/about_mercury_marine2

It's almost like they're just hoping everybody will forget they dumped $100-million into that project?

And sadly, there isn't a single thing listed on the Verado's "Features & Benefits" that would make me choose Verado over a comparably powerful E-TEC... nothing!

http://www.mercuryverado.com/L4/FB_Consumer.pdf

Comparing that sorry presentation to what BRP says about the E-TEC makes you wonder if Mercury had to lay off everyone in marketing to pay for the Verado's development?

http://www.evinrude.com/en-CA/E-Tec/E-TEC.Advantage/

[northeastcat]

I often wondered when they would incorporate the use of VES in the 2 strokes in marine use. Our sled engines are BAD ASS with the VES and get outstanding MPG as well, plus they make a whole bunch of HP with very small cc's.

[MtDoraGary]

The fact that they were BUYING and RELABELING Suzuki 4 strokes as Johnsons was conveniently unmentioned...
The announcement from BRP that they would no longer offer 4-stroke outboards in North America was, to me, stunning... nobody else seemed to even notice! LOL

[Action Dave]

The fact that they were BUYING and RELABELING Suzuki 4 strokes as Johnsons was conveniently unmentioned...

I recall the original Merc 4-strokes were Yamahas that were painted black.

[sho305]

;) And the B&S Vanguard is a Mitsubishi, though I don't know who manufactures it. Americans can't make new engines, silly!:)

"Those evil Asians are taking all our engine business away!!! Hey, lets just buy them and put our name on the front....it would be work to actually make one of our own."

[Juggernaut]

mercury really spent 100 million on the designing of the verado? i would be embarassed if i was them. but the optimax on the other hand, has more power per pound, and uses less fuel than yamaha and honda 4 strokes. not sure about the etech tho..

[franklins]

You guys have said it right. The pigs are even bending transoms on the tin boats as well. I have seen it my self and they talk great fuel savings as well. Don't put one on a bass boat after having a two stroke on it!! You can't cary enough fuel for a 250 verado. They might be good at low or half speed but we run wide open all the time and now we are talking about sucking fuel!!

I have also herd about the E-tech as well and how built proff they are. Well I have blue blood but I do tell it the way it is. If somthing is good or somthing is bad I speck the truth.

My friend just bought a new 225 E_tech and we were out fishing last sunday and we took of and the motor come to a quick stop!! It would not turn over and I was thinking bad batery.After a few minutes the moter turned over again and started right up, but there was a little nock in the motor. We were trying to figer out what was going on. My friend said the motor had blow up and I said no way because it started up. We run around that day and then took it in to see what was going on with it.
The motor was checked out and it said there was just 30 hours on it but there has been no oil going to the pistons. The alarms would not go off because the sensor was in the line after the VRO tank and it showed all kinds of presure. But after the other one on the motor it had no presure and it could not deteck this. When the removed the head the cylinders were scuffed up and the pistons were blue. The company is standing behind it and just sending him a new motor witch is great. I think there is some things to be improved on in the new motor since this was not such a great thing to have happen. They have one thing right though ,the new cylinder walls are darn neir bullet proff after seeing how long the motor kept running when there was no oil getting to the pistons. Lets hop that they get the problems solved because I do think they will be a good motor if they do so.
When I first came on this site I asked about a problem that merc is having, where the motors are brecking of on the motor mounts. I think I upset a few guys that thought I just set out to trash merc but it was not at all the case. I was just seeing if it was happen with the race boats as well as our bass boats!!
Any way as you can see I just told the truth about the blue motors now and don't forget I do realy have blue blood!
Dean

[LIQUID NIRVANA]

You guys have said it right. The pigs are even bending transoms on the tin boats as well. I have seen it my self and they talk great fuel savings as well. Don't put one on a bass boat after having a two stroke on it!! You can't cary enough fuel for a 250 verado. They might be good at low or half speed but we run wide open all the time and now we are talking about sucking fuel!!

I have also herd about the E-tech as well and how built proff they are. Well I have blue blood but I do tell it the way it is. If somthing is good or somthing is bad I speck the truth.

My friend just bought a new 225 E_tech and we were out fishing last sunday and we took of and the motor come to a quick stop!! It would not turn over and I was thinking bad batery.After a few minutes the moter turned over again and started right up, but there was a little nock in the motor. We were trying to figer out what was going on. My friend said the motor had blow up and I said no way because it started up. We run around that day and then took it in to see what was going on with it.
The motor was checked out and it said there was just 30 hours on it but there has been no oil going to the pistons. The alarms would not go off because the sensor was in the line after the VRO tank and it showed all kinds of presure. But after the other one on the motor it had no presure and it could not deteck this. When the removed the head the cylinders were scuffed up and the pistons were blue. The company is standing behind it and just sending him a new motor witch is great. I think there is some things to be improved on in the new motor since this was not such a great thing to have happen. They have one thing right though ,the new cylinder walls are darn neir bullet proff after seeing how long the motor kept running when there was no oil getting to the pistons. Lets hop that they get the problems solved because I do think they will be a good motor if they do so.
When I first came on this site I asked about a problem that merc is having, where the motors are brecking of on the motor mounts. I think I upset a few guys that thought I just set out to trash merc but it was not at all the case. I was just seeing if it was happen with the race boats as well as our bass boats!!
Any way as you can see I just told the truth about the blue motors now and don't forget I do realy have blue blood!
Dean

Yes, i'm sure there is the occasional problem with the E-Tec but not design faults. If you really read the above post carefully you will note that the motor really does run for multiple hours up to 1200 rpm with no additional oil introduced into the motor. The factory warranty backup is beyond superb. This guy will be back on the water within a week or less with a brand new fully dressed POWERHEAD. No they won't take the starter & everything from the old block & put it on the new block, they will give him a COMPLETE FULLY DRESSED BRAND NEW POWERHEAD. The original 'ENTIRE' powerhead goes back to the factory intact & is meticuously checked to determine the problem. The warranty is NON DECLINING for 3 years as well. I know where my money will be spent with great service & backup like that.