E-TEC beats out Verado?

[150aintenuff]

Npartin, the 10% is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. You are correct to note that many of the newer engines burn a bit less than 10% of their rated power as compared to traditional carbureted or EFI two-strokes which usually burn right around 10%.

In the 300 shootout dyno pulls, both engines were out of break-in mode. We know this for sure because we initially hith the break-in limiter with the Merc, and had to take it back to the lake for an additional hour of run time. It would then rev freely to 7000 rpm (where it hit the regular limiter).

The dyno used was indeed a Land & Sea operated by Gordon Montague of Monty Racing. It's an older model L&S but has always given consistent results. It records numbers very close to those that the OEMs see, but of course not on that 300 test! Yamaha seemed quite satisfied with the 275 hp results though. They had no problem with them. Merc on the other hand was quite upset. We recently ran a Merc 250xs on the same dyno and it produced 264 hp, which Merc says is right in line with their results up in Fond Du Lac.

Unlike many other Land & Sea marine products of the past which were questionable at best, their dynos seem to work quite well if you have adequate water supply and have worked with the unit and are familiar with it. It is a very sophisticated unit and I am certain that in the right hands can challenge any high-buck dyno for accuracy and repeatability.

JWTjr.

OK so you have proven my argument so now where is the 100mph 250XS Bullet in the same form as that was tested in the 104mph boat. as the 250 is 264 hp (your results) and 300x is 277 (also your results) so now john answer my question using your results you gave CAN you produce a 100mph FISHING hull in B&WB TEST LOAD using a 250XS..... or did you yourself with your own testing PROVE MERC RIGHT that their engines ACTUALLY DO make 300+ hp.

[Laker]

Nicholas
You Dont understand Engines do you..!?
They are not all the same... They can be built by the exact same person and the same machines..and 2 built right next to each other Can be very different.
Add in Different AIR.. FUEL.. Alitude....Ect and even exatly the same motors built in Fondulac Wisconsin.. travel to Boston, Miami,Denver or Seattle Will act differently on different days..
And even if those are all the same their is still more variables.. You seem to have a couple brain cells to rub together... I Suggest You start rubbing harder to generate some common sense.

[150aintenuff]

LAKER

VARIBLES MY REAR.. if 2 identical engines (that are indead IDENTICAL) are ran in the same location IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE as they are both breathing the same AIR and FUEL and if are identical THEY "SHOULD" be DAMN NEAR IDENTICAL in numbers... AND IM sorry but 50hp differences ARE NOT DUE TO VARIABLES... 5-10 hp MAYBE but not 50... if both engines dyno in WISCONSIN at 300 hp at 600 ft elevation at 60*F and a barometer of 30" in washington at same elevation temp and berometer SHOULD be VERY CLOSE to Power Output AS VARIABLES ARE ELIMINATED if test conditions are duplicated

also COMMON SENSE will tell you FACTS are FACTS regardless of location..
#1 FACT EPA regulates Power output to 10% total VARIATION from Adfertised HP so if really tecnical on law merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so subtracting 10% would Yeild 297HP for LEGAL MINIMUM output. 277 fals WAY short of that.
#2 FACT JWTJr SAID HP figures FIRST I mearly commented on the numbers he posted as i felt they were scued in some way
#3 Fact the L&S dyno is not the most accurate dyno on the market GRANTED it is the most portable, adaptable, and usable feild DYNO on the market, IT is also one of the CHEAPEST and In this day and age YOU GET what you PAY FOR.
#4 FACT NEITHER of us were there at ANY of the tests JWTjr posted about and BOTH of our observations ARE SUBJECTIVE as it is POSSIBLE for JWTJr to have numbers mixed around... it isnt likly because he does know his stuff BUT IT IS POSSIBLE!!!
#5 FACT I dont claim to Know EVERYTHING and None of us EVER will but I DO know MY type of boating and boats better than MOST people do.



I KNOW MOTORS AND IF YOU EVER CALL ME NICHOLAS AGAIN I WILL HAVE TO CONTACT S&F BECAUSE THAT IS NOT MY NAME ITS JUST NICK!!! AND I FIND IT OFFENSIVE YOU WOULD ASSUMEANY DIFFERENT!!!!

I atleast take the time to give my real name in the posts i post.

JWTJr Ran a bullet with a 250XS and it ran mid eightys and HIS OWN WORDS he ran a 250XS at 264hp and HE ALSO was involved with the 104MPH bullet in the December issue and (AGAIN IN HIS OWN WORDS) the 300x he has dynoed were 277hp and one being 290 hp. so (ASSUMING CONSISTANT PRODUCT) that 300X on the 104mph bullet was only 277 hp why wasnt the w250XS (ALSO ASSUMING CONSISTANT PRODUCT) (264hp) closer to 100mph????


I may not OWN a 300X or even a 3.0L engine but I DO know the product and I KNOW how to make them run and run well , It may not run with a race tuned engine but I GARANTEE it will run ALOT longer and be close ENOUGH to make 99% of people happy.
BTW i have engines that are DAMN NEAR 50 yrs old that just Barely smoke anymore than new conventional CARB or EFI engines and are JUST as smooth and start on the first Pull each time REGARDLESS of hot cold or other wise.

I personally DONT CARE about 100+mph boats BECAUSE I CANT AFFORD THEM but i DO CARE about getting EVERY LAST MPH out of what i got and what others bring to me.. so far I havent had ANY blown motors or unhappy clients, but I also error on side of caution because i cant afford one to go POP

Sure i could say SCREW safety, reliabiltiy, and customer satisfaction and spend thousands of dollars making stock engines run with HIGHLY specilized RACE OB's but I also like my freedom and my pocketbook.

I cant say I know JWTJr or that i agree with EVERYTHING he says but i do RESPECT his articles in the magazine he works for, he has always been respectfull to my posts and backed up his data EVEN if I dont AGREE i still give him respect and will contine to read his publication REGARDLESS because it is a wealth of infomation that if applied correctly CAN be repeated IN MOST cases..

Perhaps JAY SMith can post what 2 blueprint EXACT engines run like... Ill put my 2 cents on they will run so similar that the will be hard to tell apart.

[BarryStrawn]

#1 FACT EPA regulates Power output to 10% total VARIATION from Adfertised HP so if really tecnical on law merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so subtracting 10% would Yeild 297HP for LEGAL MINIMUM output. 277 fals WAY short of that.

Facts?

Mercury advertises the 300X at 300 horsepower or 224 kiloWatts at the propshaft. http://www.mercurymarine.com/pro_max_300x So using the +- 10% it would seem you and the EPA should be happy with any 300x between 270 and 330 hp.

[jimmyb]

JWT:

you should take a tour of merc racing sometime! Then you will see that all the racing powerheads (this is any powerhead that has the racing name on it, including 200XS, 2.5XS, 250XS and 300X, etc) are ran on a POWERHEAD dyno for 1 hour of break in before being bolted to a midsection/gearcase.

Running engines on a propshaft dyno is problematic for production...

[Scream And Fly]

I went to Mercury Racing this past summer. Very impressive, and indeed the engines are run on a powerhead dyno - there are even photos of it in the Gallery!

Greg

[Laker]

Nicholas
Do you live in the same world the rest of us do?
Or do you just have over active fingers trying to stir up trouble.
What do you have to prove with your ramblings?
Besides making yourslef sound like a babbling wannabe.

[Balzy]

I KNOW MOTORS AND IF YOU EVER CALL ME NICHOLAS AGAIN I WILL HAVE TO CONTACT S&F BECAUSE THAT IS NOT MY NAME ITS JUST NICK!!! AND I FIND IT OFFENSIVE YOU WOULD ASSUME ANY DIFFERENT!!!!

There goes Laker stirr'in up the pot again !!!!!!!!!! You sure are a trouble maker Mr Lakehead !!!!!!!

BTW, I agree that:

Mercury advertises the 300X at 300 horsepower or 224 kiloWatts at the propshaft. http://www.mercurymarine.com/pro_max_300x So using the +- 10% it would seem you and the EPA should be happy with any 300x between 270 and 330 hp.

Pretty simple math if ya ask me. 10% up / 10% down. Such a simple world...........

Originally Posted by npartin
#1 FACT EPA regulates Power output to 10% total VARIATION from Adfertised HP so if really tecnical on law merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so subtracting 10% would Yeild 297HP for LEGAL MINIMUM output. 277 fals WAY short of that.

Nicholas, Nick, npartin, whatever ya wanna be called today, does that mean that in your world of math if merc posts in press releases that 300x is aprox 330 propshaft hp so adding 10% would Yeild 363HP for LEGAL MAXIMUM output?

Come on, get with the program, the advertised rating on a 300 HP motor is 300 HP. Is n't that why they put 300 on the side of the cowl? Maybe they should be making cowl decals that say 277X or 363X. LOL

[JWTjr.]

jimmy, thanks for the invite...last time I was there it was winter 97, would love to get out there again maybe even make some of the fun rallies like Balzy's. I will try hard to do so this year. I'll talk to Rick and my editor about a Merc Racing shop tour in BWB in 05. While I was there I did indeed see the engines being run on the powerhead dyno...which is why it was so strange to see the 300x we ran without any evidence of prior running before we started it for the first time.

Npartin, you are trying to compare two or even three different test occurences as if they were the same, done in the same day on the same boat. Not possible. Comparing the 300x we ran on the 104 mph Bullet to the 300x we ran on the Gambler (the one that dynoed at 277 hp) is not a good comparison. Yes they are both 300x engines but one could have been very strong and the other not. Like it or not, those variations do exist. Several years ago we ran a 300x on a 21XD Bullet and it not only ran 100 mph, it burned over 30 GPH on my Floscan gauge. I'm sure that one was strong, although I don't know for sure how much power it made--did not dyno it. Could have been 290, could have been 300, etc.

Also, you are forgetting the rev limit on the 250XS compared to the the 300X. On all but the newest 05 250XSs, the rev limit was 5850 (it's now 6400). So, with equal or close gear ratios, the 250XS could never equal the speed of the 300x with same boat and setup. However, with horsepower ratings so close, similar speeds ARE possible with careful setup, gear ratio selection and propeller changes. To wit, we ran a SVS-equipped Pro 250XB on a 20' DC Bullet a few years ago at Lake X with 1.62 gears and a good top end prop at speeds very close to 100 with Paul Nichols and myself aboard. If we could turn the engine past 6150 I'm sure we could have easily broken 100. Ditto with Paul's record-breaking 105 mph run with a 250XS. He used every bit of prop (34") and gear ratio (1.62) possible to keep the engine below 5850 and it produced speeds of 105 mph. Granted that was with a light boat with no fishing rigging, but it still shows a very close comparision. You must remember to keep those variables in the equation when comparing "not-so-similar" setups and test results.

JWTjr.

[sosmerc]

How's this for a new decal:

300X?

[Balzy]

..................

How's this for a new decal:

300X?

3??X


John T, It would be great to see you here. We may not be doing a full blown BTTW charity deal like we have in the past but we will be getting everyone together the thrird week or so in July. We will plan the tour at High Perf and probably more stuff at the production plant (Verado anyone?) for 2005. Watch for my posts for more info down the road John.

[sosmerc]

Much Better!!

Merry XX-mas ALL!!!

[150aintenuff]

THat 330 number i keep saying came from merc and yes they tout it as 300 but in its performance designation did it ever think that merc was under rating the mota with its cowling ALSO mercury openly advertises that the 300X gained nearly 40 hp ofer promax 300 so EVEN if the 300 promax was on the lowside of 300 (oh say for point of refference 280hp) that would still put it OVER 300 and closer to 320.
I ALSO understand VARIATION in manufacturing as the parts are MASS produced and engines may be nowhere near IDENTICAL heck MOST are lucky to even be close. BUT 60HP off of what MERC admitted to saying the 300X had for HP is more than VARIATION... perhaps that 300x that JWTJR dynoed had a bad hole or MAYBE it needed another day to set the pistons even though the ECM timer had allowed it to rev fully.
I have ALSO heard (no ACTUALL documentation) that the HPDI wasnt putting out Quite 300HP but it is also a PRODUCTION OB not a performance OB and IT can be ran in CA.. so their "close" I NEVER did say the numbers were incorect or that the 300x was a bad engine i just didnt agree with the numbers becaus from what i have seen that engine has more power than that.

[neveredge]

I have a Question. What I want to know is this (330hp) a crankshaft reading or a prop shaft reading. If Merc doesn't use a propshaft dyno then how are they coming up with propshaft hp numbers?

[Scream And Fly]

All Mercury outboards are propshaft rated, and I know that the 300X makes more than 300 horsepower at the prop.

Greg