Ok, I will be the jerk.

[Dave S]

I did not know Norris was still around.... though he was locked in the car trunk of an old Merc 4 dr....

[WavetoWave]

As many of you know, I sometimes have no problem speaking my mind and this is one of those times. I am not perfect and never claim to be, but in these incidents it is not fair to guys like Greg Terzein and other Supporting Vendors. I have talked with a few Supporting Vendor’s and they feel the same way. Just to be clear, Greg has nothing or knows nothing about this. He and I have not talked about this at all. So, please do not include Greg in this. I just wanted to be clear.

I get tired of seeing post about other boat builders, haulers, parts sellers and etc. being posted on here constantly and most of them are not a Supporting Vendor or even paying member. How is that fair to Greg, Supporting Vendors or paying members? Real simple, it is not. At this time, I am not going to name who they are, but you know who you are. My suggestion, spend the money and step up

I have been a member of S&F from pretty much from day one. I cannot remember my original username, but I found this one below. I believe I joined in 2000 or 2001 originally, but after losing names, passwords or changing internet providers, I have had a few different names over the years, but everyone always knew it was Todd Lamb they were dealing with.

I am a big boy, so feel free to post whether you agree or disagree with me. We are all still boating family, but you guys need to look at this from my point of view and others. Thank you, Todd Lamb

Attachment 389603

Thanks Todd, I totally agree. We just became a team member to support Scream and Fly. We try to add to the community here and we try and help manufacturers and builders on our online magazine as well. The community here is great though. Thanks.
Jared

[David]

Is the problem with non supporting vendors posting surreptitiously? Or just discussion about non supporting vendor products? The former, I can see your point.

"I get tired of seeing post about other boat builders, haulers, parts sellers and etc. being posted on here constantly and most of them are not a Supporting Vendor or even paying member"

[Spectre Powerboats]

Is the problem with non supporting vendors posting surreptitiously? Or just discussion about non supporting vendor products? The former, I can see your point.

"I get tired of seeing post about other boat builders, haulers, parts sellers and etc. being posted on here constantly and most of them are not a Supporting Vendor or even paying member"

David, yes, there are guys posting surreptitiously. I actually had to look that word up. For anyone who skipped a lot of school like I did. Surreptitiously, means "in a way that attempts to avoid notice or attention; secretively."
I was to busy playing with a fast car and chasing women.

There are also guys who just flat out offer their or their friends services quite often. This is my opinion and feel free to tell me I am nuts. This is just an example of my thoughts. I think if John Smith is telling everyone about how good George at ABC Marina is all of the time and constantly mentioning ABC Marina anytime a question comes up related to a Marina, someone should be paying for that advertisement. I think if ABC Marina is mentioned only a few times, then there is no harm. I see a lot of business's mentioned on here and the guys mentioning them work for them, with them and some get kick backs from them. That in my opinion is wrong. If you are bettering another business or yourself from mentioning a name, then someone needs to be paying.

I'll be the jerk again. Sorry Greg, but you are to soft. lol I would never be able to do your job and I would probably have no members or website either. I think a lot of people take advantage of Greg's kindness, because he has to be one of the nicest guys I know.

All I am saying is police yourself or I think people of this board will, to keep it a great place. Again, this is coming from a guy who is far from perfect, but improving daily. Thanks Todd

[tunnelmike]

Adding to what Todd said we need to all keep an eye out for those who appear to be selling commercially. Its not fair to the supporting vendors here. The creativity of those trying to skirt the rules makes them hard to see sometimes and with the amount of information here its difficult to catch them all.

Thanks Greg and all those who have made this site what it is for all these years ! Mike

[Scream And Fly]

I really hate policing the forums for seller abuse. It never makes me feel good. There are a very small percentage of members that will do anything they possibly can to 'fly under the radar', even though they're fully aware that they're breaking rules. Not only does it hurt the Supporting Vendors (they don't care), but it hurts this site as well (they don't care). Fortunately, this represents an extremely small segment of the membership, however it exists, and proving it's happening in a respectful manner can really be tiresome, especially when some of these people will insist over and over that the 5 new cowls and 7 sets of new heads that they’re selling here are "just laying around in their garage" and they bought those all for projects.

Many of these sellers will claim that they're not a 'real business' since they do not sell full-time, or they are not incorporated as a business, therefore they are not a commercial entity and should not be required to become Supporting Vendors. And yet their entire posting history here is in the Buy and Sell areas. The definition here is clear: any activity that is conducted solely on a for-profit basis is considered commercial.

To anybody that may purchase items from these sellers, ask yourself this: if these sellers are so eager and comfortable with being dishonest with us and in how they conduct their business, what's to stop them from being dishonest with their buyers?

I realize that the Buy and Sell areas here are very important. Buying and selling parts and boats not only helps others, but it enables us to keep on boating, especially as some parts are hard to find. However, I've always thought it would be bad if Scream And Fly became little more than the "Craigslist of boating", since I feel that the discussion areas are ultimately what is most important here.

In the end, if some members are going to go through the trouble of hiding their activities in an effort to avoid becoming Supporting Vendors, there are unfortunately some that will succeed, at least for a short time. As much as we try to look for this activity, if people are going to conduct solicitations in private, then I would really urge members to report those messages to us. And I am very thankful to those of you that do, as it is an enormous help.

Greg

[Dave Strong]

I will not deal with non paying members period, supporting or otherwise. 1 you are not helping the site, 2 if you get burned you have no recourse. JMO if I can come up with with $25 a year can not see why others can not. I have paid since day one and will continue to do so. Think about it is there a magazine subscription you can can by anywhere and get what you do from this site for $25 per year?

Dave

[Scream And Fly]

I appreciate it Dave

Another thing I forgot to mention is that based on many years of experience here, a good percentage of sales that ended up with an unhappy buyer came from sellers that were operating surreptitiously here, often soliciting sales via private messages so as not to draw attention to themselves. This is for two reasons:

1. Those dishonest sellers generally don't care about their reputation here, or upholding a good reputation, since the scope of their business is being kept largely secret.

2. Sellers that break the rules often feel that if they screw a buyer, that unhappy buyer will be much less likely to report a bad transaction to us since they knowingly purchased from a seller that is operating a commercial business in secret. Being fully aware of this advantage that they would have over the buyer in that situation, very often these ‘secret sellers’ feel much less compelled to be fully forthcoming and accurate in their descriptions of the items they’re selling. Their only priority is making money off people here any way they can. All else is of little or no concern to them.

I've seen this happen many times - regrettably, through posts on other sites because the buyer didn't bring it to my attention, which I wish they had.

If we ban that bad seller, in most cases they don't want to lose that cash-flow, so they'll make every effort to register another name here and continue where they left off. Old buyers they screwed will not know who they are, and once they screw another buyer, they'll just repeat the process. Banning IP addresses is very effective, but it is not 100% effective, especially with widespread dynamic IP addressing , VPNs, and proxy servers. It's that kind of thing that occupies a lot of time for us, which could be much better spent on adding to the site, rather than policing it for that activity.

I've been forwarded emails by unhappy buyers where the seller would even ask the buyer to keep their activity on the "down-low" here. Very honest, don't you think?

[Dave Strong]

Keeping someone's activity on the down low should be a person's first clue.

Dave

[vnemous]

Low down sellers selling on the low down, how ironic

[Onetime]

I've sent a pm to someone about something I have available for sale in the past. I've also sent a pm regarding something that someone mentions they have for sale.

My thinking was rather then intruding on someone else's existing thread or for sale thread I would pm instead. Have done this because I think it's wrong to go off track especially on a for sale thread. Never thought of it as Greg pointed out, but I'm not trying to hide anything or cheat anyone. Just saying not all contact via pm has bad intentions.

[David]

I hope I'm not the jerk, but is it OK to post about my friend's business?

1. My J Craft - I am really pleased with it
2. Suggest that if someone wanted a new Vking they could buy one where I bought my J
3. Suggest that an SRV could probably be bought?

I am not coordinating with my friend. To my knowledge he does not post here at all. Nor does he have normal business things like a web site, a sign on his building, or a phone.

I enjoy the posts about Skaters being built, Tuffs, STVs from Full Throttle, etc, none of whom are supporting vendors.

[Scream And Fly]

I hope I'm not the jerk, but is it OK to post about my friend's business?

1. My J Craft - I am really pleased with it
2. Suggest that if someone wanted a new Vking they could buy one where I bought my J
3. Suggest that an SRV could probably be bought?

I am not coordinating with my friend. To my knowledge he does not post here at all. Nor does he have normal business things like a web site, a sign on his building, or a phone.

I enjoy the posts about Skaters being built, Tuffs, STVs from Full Throttle, etc, none of whom are supporting vendors.

Hi David, I very much appreciate you asking. That makes it a lot easier for us.

Generally, promoting another business is considered advertising. It would also be in the business's best interest to register here, where they could directly communicate with potential customers. Becoming a Supporting Vendor on Scream And Fly is extremely easy, and I always do all that I can to work with any company or individual. It's not a lot of money at all.

Also, there is definitely a difference between advertising for a company and posting news. Like you mentioned, those posts about Skaters, Tuffs, Full Throttle Powerboats and others are very interesting and certainly fall under the "news" category. That is certainly not violating any rules, and I always like 'behind the scenes' types of posts. The difference would be if an employee of the boat company was using posts like those as a vehicle for promotion, which has and does happen, regrettably.

Above everything, the bottom line is that I always try to be fair to everybody - businesses and members alike. Anybody that has contacted me with some gray areas of possible requirements for Supporting Vendor accounts will certainly know that the first priority is helping the business and setting them up properly here so as to protect the investment that our Supporting Vendors make in Scream And Fly, and to also be fair to them. I am not out to reach into the pockets of people, that's for sure. But anybody or business that profits off of Scream And Fly should, in common sense, understand that we have [very expensive] operating costs, just like they do, and like the parts, props, and engines they might stock and sell, we also pay for our 'stock', which is our server and network bandwidth. Without it, Scream And Fly would simply disappear. No business is giving away their products, so it should not be expected that we should have to do the same.

I would really hope that anybody that has questions to contact me both here, or by email or private message. I have to keep the playing field level so that everybody benefits fairly.

[Scream And Fly]

I've sent a pm to someone about something I have available for sale in the past. I've also sent a pm regarding something that someone mentions they have for sale.

My thinking was rather then intruding on someone else's existing thread or for sale thread I would pm instead. Have done this because I think it's wrong to go off track especially on a for sale thread. Never thought of it as Greg pointed out, but I'm not trying to hide anything or cheat anyone. Just saying not all contact via pm has bad intentions.

And that's the proper way of doing it for sure. Thank you for bringing that up.

I always ask that people respect the posts of others. If somebody lists an item for sale, it's considered very rude for somebody else to get on that thread with comments about how another place or person has the item, etc. Nobody would like that to happen to them. That practice is known as "threadcrapping" and as funny as that term is, I do consider it a serious issue.

Greg

[altec7777]

Until i read this post I was not a paying member, I'll be direct and upfront about that. A year ago I knew nothing about boats, motors, or this expensive ass hobby. But since then I was introduced to this community of people, this website, and the highs and lows of boating on this level.

I'll freely admit that 1 year in and I am HOOKED for life. I've visited other forums and seen groups on FB but the people here have always been helpful to me when I had a question or when I've posted something for sale. So i just wanted to say thanks to Greg for the site and Todd for bringing this up.

Cheers boys!