Who has made a light weight floor?

[aaron78viper]

I would be using epoxy if I did this floor! that is what my entire recore was done with. So yes, this thread is geared towards epoxy resin as far as I was concerned.

[GregAdams]

Well... http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/fib...mat-23520.html

Aaron. I don't want to cause a controversy. You don't know me and mine is a minority opinion, so go with the guys you know.

Xstream. Obviously I don't have your experience, but it sounds like you have experienced delamination when not using CSM between fabric and plywood. And you obviously don't have my experience. I would not recommend anything because somebody told me it is a good or bad idea. I only recommend it because I have done it many times. Between my clients and myself we have racked up a lot of race miles and some big crashes over the years. No delam problems with ply and fabric yet. Perhaps I have access to superior vinylester. I have been using the same supplier for over 30 years, and they are continually developing their products.

Having said all that Aaron, why did you move away from the recommendation of a solid floor to a cored floor. Did you work out the weight saved, or weight gained?

[XstreamVking]

Gregadams, I use the reichold hydrex vinylester. I have had no failures. While your experiences prove to the contrary, and I don't doubt you, the mfgs recommendations are always going to err on the side of caution. The new resins and the much improved weaves are some fantastic products, and may permit the omission of mat entirely. I am just going on what I know works. This is with composites, as I have not used plywood for decades. These boats were built with a pc of inferior plywood and just resin coated or shot with a light coat of chop and just poly resin to cover. They worked well until the wood rotted away in most cases. I can only offer what I have learned in 30+ yrs of glass work of all types. PS my V-King has not failed, or even produced a crack after 7+ yrs of running.....And it is very light.

[tunnels]

Aaron. I don't want to cause a controversy. You don't know me and mine is a minority opinion, so go with the guys you know.

Xstream. Obviously I don't have your experience, but it sounds like you have experienced delamination when not using CSM between fabric and plywood. And you obviously don't have my experience. I would not recommend anything because somebody told me it is a good or bad idea. I only recommend it because I have done it many times. Between my clients and myself we have racked up a lot of race miles and some big crashes over the years. No delam problems with ply and fabric yet. Perhaps I have access to superior vinylester. I have been using the same supplier for over 30 years, and they are continually developing their products.

Having said all that Aaron, why did you move away from the recommendation of a solid floor to a cored floor. Did you work out the weight saved, or weight gained?

Point to remember is there are many resins for each of the 3 systems !, Polyester !Vinylester !and epoxy!!
Every country has there good and bad within the ranges !! .
Same with the timbers and the like being used !! Plywood comes in many different forms and the wood used to make them ! so quoting something used in one country is possible something else entirely different in another country . I know first hand the grades of chinese ply we used in Korea for plug making was crap and as the project neared its completion stage voids started to appear as lumps that had to be ground out and refilled ! Because we were in a completely air conditioned environment the WOOD as moving and voids with pockets of air were expanding because of the elevated temperature we had to use to cure and harden resins and paints etc The epoxy RESIN we had used for the glass skinning OVER THE PLYWOOD was terrible but had been highly RECOMENDED BY MANAGEMENT !We ended up using polyester for all the other projects because it was 100% predictable !!
Its like mold release wax Mirror glaze is NOT COMPATABLE WITH ANY and ALL ASIAN GEL COATS and causes enormous DEMOLDING problems, Just by changing to one coat of TR 108 wax articles almost fell out of molds ! Been there and sorted these kinds of things many times .
In Tahiti we used Silicone car wax for mold release !! the Tahitian guys made it work !and was all in the technique they had developed them selves when spraying there gel coat !! it worked every time with not one single problem .
What you think you know works for you in one country but step into another country and try the same things you could get your fingers burnt badly !!
There no substitute for learning new experiences! when you think you seen it all there are big surprises waiting for you just round the corner !!

[aaron78viper]

Aaron. I don't want to cause a controversy. You don't know me and mine is a minority opinion, so go with the guys you know.

Xstream. Obviously I don't have your experience, but it sounds like you have experienced delamination when not using CSM between fabric and plywood. And you obviously don't have my experience. I would not recommend anything because somebody told me it is a good or bad idea. I only recommend it because I have done it many times. Between my clients and myself we have racked up a lot of race miles and some big crashes over the years. No delam problems with ply and fabric yet. Perhaps I have access to superior vinylester. I have been using the same supplier for over 30 years, and they are continually developing their products.

Having said all that Aaron, why did you move away from the recommendation of a solid floor to a cored floor. Did you work out the weight saved, or weight gained?

If a sheet of ply wood at 1/2 inch weigh about 65 lbs, likely 80 lbs with fiberglass on both sides.. the same thickness of core at the same thickness with the same fiberglass on both sides I would guess is about 30-35 lbs. also consider I would be removing an entire stringer of plywood and glass from strake area that i currently have a 6 inch tall stringer. and cutting my center stringers down from 8 inches tall to about 5 inches. A lot of material removed and replaced with a floor that should greatly reduce hull twisting and bending, make the hull more comfortable to walk in, and maybe lighter overall. maybe.... I dont really care if its the same weight. I care about the usefull design at this point, and the fact i may build a better hull.

[XstreamVking]

This is what is great about this site and people. Everyone has their own ideas of what will suit their needs. And the coolest thing is we get to see how the end result works out and the longevity of the repair system. Just do it your own way and enjoy it.....Looking fwd to seeing pics of it running...

[W2F a V-King]

Agreed ^^^
That's the beauty of wood and or composites and resin. One can be very creative, build anything you want.
Like Xstream said earlier, if you rebuild it back the way it was made originally but with better materials, you can't go wrong.

[GregAdams]

I spoke with someone on here about a floor for my viper, I trust his advice for a solid floor that will stand the test of time, but I had an idea for a lighter weight floor.

I was asking about the solid floor you mentioned in your first post. I am assuming this is a solid laminate. Did you mean a plywood cored floor ?

[aaron78viper]

I was asking about the solid floor you mentioned in your first post. I am assuming this is a solid laminate. Did you mean a plywood cored floor ?

balsa core floor is my intention, with epoxy resin and a biaxial, or maybe a triaxial glass on each side. based on advice from tunnels a triaxial may be the best for me. the strands going straight across the floor will make the floor rigid and the x fibers would give me stiffness from twisting. if i seal it up good i see no reason it wont be a fantastic floor

[tunnels]

balsa core floor is my intention, with epoxy resin and a biaxial, or maybe a triaxial glass on each side. based on advice from tunnels a triaxial may be the best for me. the strands going straight across the floor will make the floor rigid and the x fibers would give me stiffness from twisting. if i seal it up good i see no reason it wont be a fantastic floor

Remember what fabric go where? tri on the underside and Bia on top !,
Epoxy is a bit over the top !, Poly or vinylester would be completely satisfactory !. Make sure you roll a finish coat of resin both sides when your finishes ! Just take one pin hole any where and water WILL get in !!
What thickness balsa you anticipate using ??

[aaron78viper]

Remember what fabric go where? tri on the underside and Bia on top !,
Epoxy is a bit over the top !, Poly or vinylester would be completely satisfactory !. Make sure you roll a finish coat of resin both sides when your finishes ! Just take one pin hole any where and water WILL get in !!
What thickness balsa you anticipate using ??

I will probably buy a few sheets of 1/2inch balsa. I may be able to buy some 3/8 inch balsa core at low cost locally.

[XstreamVking]

You might be aware of this method. I use a pc of melamine board waxed so the glass wont stick and lay the 1st layer of glass directly on it. Let this harden and apply the core. Once this sets up apply the covering glass. This way you have a impervious surface that is really smooth and flat on one side at least. Apply some x-tra resin to the un finished side to seal it. Allow to cure and pull off, cut to size and install.

[tunnels]

I will probably buy a few sheets of 1/2inch balsa. I may be able to buy some 3/8 inch balsa core at low cost locally.

For any floor 1/2 is a Absolut minimum thickness and is depending on the spacing of the under floor supports !
All and any walking surfaced including deck and hatch's always use 3/4 as a general rule of thumb , there again depending on the spacing of underneath supporting structure !

[tunnels]

Some guys think because a panel moves its classed as being weak ! In point of fact its almost the complete opposite ! Its far less likely to break , will in most cases support quite heavy loads !
DURING the manufacture of any sized boat decks attention it the possibilities' of any movement can also be taken care of in the way core is placed down onto the mold ! How the edges are shaped and what glass fabrics are used over the back side covering the core !.
Of the hundreds of decks I have worked on 3/4" is the thickest core that I have ever laid regardless of the size of the boat!. Bulk heads and other panels are usually placed in such a way to take the loads and strengthen the decks! Plus the curvature of a deck plays a big part in contributing a significant amount strength also ! ,And this is something I have never heard of any one doing on center console boats or even a small boats floor!. A gentle camber on a cockpit floor means there is natural drainage of any water to the outer edges and with a small drain built in along the outer edges means the floor never has puddles any where !, Plus as I just said a cambered floor/deck is slightly stronger and more ridged simply by adding a camber shape !

[JBMac]

Here's a panel I made on Saturday for part of the floor on my Valero that is up under the bow.First time I've ever used Nida-core. I used 16mm Nida-core. On one side I laminated 1808 +-90 and 1708 +-45 on the other. I finished the top side with .75 oz csm. Here's my observation: it was easy to work with, its very light, and it appears to be very strong. The piece did distort a little, but I think it was the heat here on Saturday and it got a little hot while curing. In the future, I'll roll resin onto both sides of the piece, let it cure till almost hard, then do both sides of cloth at the same time. I think this would prevent distortion. Not to hijack this thread, but is it necessary to finish the edges? I'm going to bed the piece to the hull with thickened resin then use a 6" strip of biax on top where it meets the hull, so it the unfinished edge shouldn't be exposed anywhere?
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