DCB 400R boats

[Chaz]

[Rayzor]

Man, tough crowd around here! I just talked to my buddy that's a DCB dealer - if you ordered a new DCB today, you would get a delivery date of April, 2018! Every new order they have is for 400R powered boats......unbelievable!

[conmax]

Conmax,
Thanks for the info. However I guess your boat defies the laws of physics. GPS's measure speed over the gnd. There is no way your boat could be faster against the current just saying.

I agree it has to do with physics, but with many variables. That section of the Colorado river near Havasu winds its way through canyons which create short, multi-directional currents. These push boats around, making it difficult to remain within the peak current.

Apparently, my RPM is not the only hull to experience this phenomenon, as these comments from Jim Russell, the tunnel guru explains.

"This situation has to do with relative velocities and lift/drag generated. It’s a complex calculation for tunnel boat, but when the relative velocity of the sponson bottoms (versus water surface) is slightly HIGHER, the hydrodynamic lift coefficient would be approximately the same, while the drag coefficient would be slightly reduced. The overall hydrodynamic lift generated would be MORE (since Lift = function(V^2, surface area, lift coefficient) and the overall hydrodynamic drag could be slightly less (due to coefficient) OR slightly MORE due to increased relative velocity. So, bottom line is, there COULD be more efficient Lift/Drag when moving upstream – it’s going to depend on the hull (sponson) design and the velocities involved."


My boat carries the bow higher up-current which likely offsets the increased drag. The difference is not great, maybe 2 mph with 5-7 mph currents, but is repeatable. It also steers much better up-current.

My main point is that most of these top speeds published around Havasu were achieved in the main body of the lake with no significant current effect. These shallow tunnels are likely faster in low chop conditions than the deep tunnels from Skater and others. They each have their advantages, but the mod-vee West coast tunnels handle the typical conditions at Havasu quite well. If it were in big water in the east or ocean, the deeper tunnels would handle far better.

[Chaz]

"This situation has to do with relative velocities and lift/drag generated. It’s a complex calculation for tunnel boat, but when the relative velocity of the sponson bottoms (versus water surface) is slightly HIGHER, the hydrodynamic lift coefficient would be approximately the same, while the drag coefficient would be slightly reduced. The overall hydrodynamic lift generated would be MORE (since Lift = function(V^2, surface area, lift coefficient) and the overall hydrodynamic drag could be slightly less (due to coefficient) OR slightly MORE due to increased relative velocity. So, bottom line is, there COULD be more efficient Lift/Drag when moving upstream – it’s going to depend on the hull (sponson) design and the velocities involved."

Or as the professor of physics at the university of GOBIT would say ....

" Bouyyy , do'ne-cha-no ya can cut th-u da air mo easier that water "

My main point is that most of these top speeds published around Havasu were achieved in the main body of the lake with no significant current effect. These shallow tunnels are likely faster in low chop conditions than the deep tunnels from Skater and others. They each have their advantages, but the mod-vee West coast tunnels handle the typical conditions at Havasu quite well. If it were in big water in the east or ocean, the deeper tunnels would handle far better.

For some strange reason , I , I , I feel a new speed density map coming soon ....

[Double Rigged]

I am not a scholar when it comes to physics but I have been boating all my life and we have more than our fair share currents in FL.
In all my years i have never seen anything to support what you are saying Conmax. Even airplanes fly slower in a head wind over the ground. But I guess anything is possible. I do agree though at idle speeds the boat steers better against the current than with. Again a factor of your speed over the gnd.
Regarding the your other comments on the tunnels vs center pod boats they both have their advantages and disadvantages. Just a matter what you prefer. For me it is true tunnel boat.

[AZMIDLYF]

I want to borrow Chaz's library card.

[Chaz]

I am not a scholar when it comes to physics but I have been boating all my life and we have more than our fair share currents in FL.
In all my years i have never seen anything to support what you are saying Conmax. Even airplanes fly slower in a head wind over the ground. But I guess anything is possible.

Tunnel vision (no pun) on the word "current" is part of the issue . Because as you know, the wind can blow from a totally different direction than the current is running.
And it can be deceiving until you cast a line down wind and have it come back past you going upwind . Just as you can drive thru the mountains ( no not thru a tunnel) such as fancy gap , and swear your going down hill just as the trans down shifts .

Enough play on words , you answered it yourself . Yes an airplane will go slower into the wind , but by design , it will also have more lift . And since it is dealing with only one media it's easy to see and understand .
The point here is simply that a boat is dealing with two different element's . Air and thick air (water) . While running into the the wind with a boat it will certainly increase aero drag , but if it is being provided additional lift , then the net result of less boat in the water will be a higher speed . If you don't believe it , go nail a one by six across the tunnel opening and see for yourself ...

• I want to borrow Chaz's library card.

• 
  
  I didn't understand the Dewey decimal system so I burned the card and decided to learn everything the hard way ...

[Rayzor]

Man, has this thread gotten off track! But while we're here, this debate has gotten ridiculous. We've all run thousands of miles against, and with current - speeds are always greater running with the current when using GPS speedometers. All this BS about air speed vs current vs hydronamic lift vs aerodynamic lift is a joke. Yes, in a controlled environment, one could certainly produce combinations of current and wind to provide many different speed variations - but none of that happens in reality. Anyone that says their boat runs faster (using a GPS speedometer which measures land speed) against a current is obviously mistaken. I have personally driven a 28 Skater out of Bullhead City on the Colorado River when they were dumping water and the current was 5+ mph (both engines idling @ 800rpm in forward gear heading upriver and we were moving backwards against the shoreline). Downriver the boat would run 90mph at 5,000rpm on the GPS, upriver the boat would run 80mph @ 5,000rpm on the GPS. In still water, the boat runs 85mph @ 5,000rpm. That same 28 Skater had a max speed of 115 logged in it's Garmin, though the boat was only capable of 110 in still water (34" pitch Mercury cleavers on stock 300XSs). So, back to the original thread topic....... does anyone know if there is an M28 being built yet? I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who said he doesn't believe there are any orders for them yet. My understanding is that this new M28 is built out of the M29 with the last 12" damned off, which also gets rid of the notch in the bottom. They also can't get rid of the F26 with the 400Rs (down to $190k or so), all their customers would rather spend the extra $60k or so for the much bigger 29.

[conmax]

Maybe most boats don't run faster up-current then down, based upon many responses. The next time I go to Havsua, I will try to take some videos and carefully compare the differences.
I do know that many tunnels run faster into the wind then downwind, but that is different from water drag.
The M28 has not been built yet, let along tested. It is 1' shorter than the 29, does have the sponson notched removed and is bound to be lighter than the 29. DCB does have 4 orders based upon plug pics and that the changes will improve acceleration and top speed. It does appear to be more aerodynamic with reduced hull sides and increased tunnel compression. I have no opinion whether the elimination of the sponson notch will help or hurt in an outboard application.

It is clear that the weight of the M29 prevents it from comparable performance to the sub 5000lb 28 speedster. It should ride through rougher water better is that is your priority.

Somehow, I think a 28-30 ' tunnel, 1' deeper than the DCB or Speedster, legal to tow in all states (9' or so), no more than 4800lbs, and with a small cabin up front, might be better for the 400's and the typical boater and than what we have seen today.

[Chaz]

Man, has this thread gotten off track! But while we're here, this debate has gotten ridiculous. We've all run thousands of miles against, and with current - speeds are always greater running with the current when using GPS speedometers. All this BS about air speed vs current vs hydronamic lift vs aerodynamic lift is a joke.

Yea that happened by the third post . Noli hadn't even finished posting pictures yet and you were already disin on the paint scheme . But at least by then you knew where the design came from ...
My bad for thinking that talking about the difference between lift and drag of air and water would be better than calling Eliminator a liar on a DCB thread ..
Don't you use a GPS speedo for all these records you hold ...

So, back to the original thread topic....... does anyone know if there is an M28 being built yet? I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who said he doesn't believe there are any orders for them yet. My understanding is that this new M28 is built out of the M29 with the last 12" damned off, which also gets rid of the notch in the bottom. They also can't get rid of the F26 with the 400Rs (down to $190k or so), all their customers would rather spend the extra $60k or so for the much bigger 29.

I thought the original topic + pictures on post's # 1 and # 2 were of a 29' .
Never saw anything about 26 or 28 . But hey , I'm easy ......>

[Rayzor]

Yea that happened by the third post . Noli hadn't even finished posting pictures yet and you were already disin on the paint scheme . But at least by then you knew where the design came from ...
My bad for thinking that talking about the difference between lift and drag of air and water would be better than calling Eliminator a liar on a DCB thread ..
Don't you use a GPS speedo for all these records you hold ...




I thought the original topic + pictures on post's # 1 and # 2 were of a 29' .
Never saw anything about 26 or 28 . But hey , I'm easy ......>

No, actually smartass, the last record run was on a set of NJBA certified clocks. Find an open cockpit drag boat in the country with a quicker time to the 1,000'. And like I always say Charlie, post up some of your boating accomplishments.

[Chaz]

No need in name calling , unless you don't mind being called "Dale the snail"

You skipped over a lot of material , but I'll go with the one key area you chose .

Pretty much proved my point by stipulating "open cockpit" . If it's a "blown alky hydro" then say what it is . But then you really got nothin for one of them do ya ?

I got the baddest antique , non class legal , iron , 8/71 , orange stripe , black 10x10 walmart easy up covered boat in the world ... is what I hear you saying .
That should be enough to secure you a record for life ..

So I guess that puts us both in the non-boat race driver category ....

I hung up my HANS device after winning the 2011 Citrus Nationals . I wasn't the only one in my class and I did it in front of 20,000 people . If you like , I can go back over the previous 40 years , or just the last 25 behind the butterfly of open wheel cars . I don't like to brag , but I do have to warn you it's quite extensive ...

Now as an old **** I get satisfaction watching my work win actual car and boat races , you know you have had to see them , it's the kind with someone in the other lane or a full field on the grid.
Or just being out on the water for the day , having fun ....

I haven't had to tunnel crawl , injure others by running into a dock showing off , or be juvenile enough to blow past a sail boat head on , at 100 mph in a narrow waterway .. looks like you could teach me a lot ...

[Rayzor]

No need in name calling , unless you don't mind being called "Dale the snail"

You skipped over a lot of material , but I'll go with the one key area you chose .

Pretty much proved my point by stipulating "open cockpit" . If it's a "blown alky hydro" then say what it is . But then you really got nothin for one of them do ya ?

I got the baddest antique , non class legal , iron , 8/71 , orange stripe , black 10x10 walmart easy up covered boat in the world ... is what I hear you saying .
That should be enough to secure you a record for life ..

So I guess that puts us both in the non-boat race driver category ....

I hung up my HANS device after winning the 2011 Citrus Nationals . I wasn't the only one in my class and I did it in front of 20,000 people . If you like , I can go back over the previous 40 years , or just the last 25 behind the butterfly of open wheel cars . I don't like to brag , but I do have to warn you it's quite extensive ...

Now as an old **** I get satisfaction watching my work win actual car and boat races , you know you have had to see them , it's the kind with someone in the other lane or a full field on the grid.
Or just being out on the water for the day , having fun ....

I haven't had to tunnel crawl , injure others by running into a dock showing off , or be juvenile enough to blow past a sail boat head on , at 100 mph in a narrow waterway .. looks like you could teach me a lot ...

Chaz, I'm just going to completely ignore you from now on. You've become a teenage high school girl in your old age, posting stuff nobody cares about from whatever you did in the past on the asphalt, and also posting complete lies about me (once again). You've also not posted one single accomplishment of yours on the water - once again.

[Chaz]

I was happy to talk about the benefits of running into a little breeze with a slight chop on the water . Somehow you saw it more important to call different boat mfg's than the one you like , idiots , liars , cheats and thief's . When I proved to you that blue paint scheme wasn't stolen from skater . But was in fact a Greg Ozubko design dating back at least ten years earlier . Instead of being a man and saying , thanks I didn't realize that , you deleated the entire thread ... LOL who's the little ***** now .. ?

I have nothing to lie about , I have always went out of my way to answer every aspect of every question asked of me on these forums . You on the other hand continue to duck and dodge answering any question , unless it will be a platform for you to feed your ego .

Drag strips are concrete not asphalt . And I said multiple times that is the arena where I competed for most of my teenage thru adult life . And part of what I learned there is what led to the development of the "stick- mids" that helped win Pro/gas at Jasper the last two years .
I guess I could have traded being able to race Wednesday thru Friday night and both Saturday and Sunday every week of the year at one of five NHRA sanctioned tracks within a three hour drive from me , for well , a once a year event at marine stadium or the outlaw style races at the Caribbean Club .

It's easy that our priorities differ widely ( you must be like 5 ft , zero tall ? )
I certainly don't need some doctored up YouTube video's to validate who I am .

I already answered , I like to have fun on the water with my friends and family.

My best accomplishment on the water would have to be when our church group takes out groups of underprivileged children or guys from a halfway house out for a day of fishing . I do it in the spirit of giving , but always leave with a valuable life lesson learned .

Should I start with the 8' Glen-L Tiny Titan that I ran at Homestead Air Force base rockpit ? Since there has not been another one there , I guess I have held the hydro record since 1972 ... a record like that , I'm sure you can relate too ..

A couple year's back on pretty rough May Keys run , I was asked by two guys in a 30' Motion , what took ya so long ? as they waited by the Islamorada bridge .
I said it look's like I won the V-hull class ... as we all laughed .
Never did get the check or the trophy .... Pffftttttttt

A couple years ago , I bought the boat in my avatar for less than 20K. Dropped it off at my painter on way home . Spent a little over 1K with the upholstery shop . Bought a pair of 300x mids , shortened them myself . Got one lower and a set of cowls from the same guy . Bought the LH one from a guy in Atlanta . I Rebuilt the lowers myself with parts and guidance from Fullers . And I built a set of 225 powerheads with mostly used previously blown up junk .

It ran 111 like that down here in the jungle . Double R says yankee air is worth 6 mph . 117 + a couple more for the "lie factor" ... put's me right there with you. Well not really , I spent less than 35 K total . You , they see coming from a mile away ..

[xb03fs]

I have an Allison. My boat is always has a faster gps speed down river. On the other hand, the up river speed is normally closer to the downriver speed than the current speed. Likely because it feels like lifts and handles better going up river. For example the current may be 3 mph and I may get a 1 mph difference of like on the Mississippi they current is normally 5-7 mph and and speed difference is usually only 2.5-3.