Screaming Eagle Boats

[Baja170]

Randy said the one he is building will be 29' with a 300xs. So add a couple feet to your garage and order one.

Dave

Depending on how wide your garage is, you might be able to angle it in and fit it or most likely if you got a fold away tongue and could angle it a bit it would fit. Good luck getting it to fit though and measure first twice, don't be like me and render your shop unusable until you move a boat because you thought it would fit in another garage but just didn't quite make it. DOH! I was so far off a foldable tongue would not even make it work. Don't be a me. (they need a facepalm and head exploding and wife finger pointing emoticons here on S&F)

[Spectre Powerboats]

The original plans for this boat was to be a 300. Rich has been getting advise from friends and a Marina out there that is rigging it on what to do with the boat. I know nothing about the waters you run in and I am not rigging this boat, so I have no control of what goes on it. His friends and local Marina have helped him make this choice. I put my 2 cents in, but he is the customer and I have to do the best I can to make him happy and give him my advice along the way. Hopefully with the fuel tanks moved forward, only using a 5" setback and maybe some other weight moved forward it should work out, but I don't know your waters, so he needs friend's like you to best advice him on that. He is lucky to have friend's like you who care.

[Rayzor]

The original plans for this boat was to be a 300. Rich has been getting advise from friends and a Marina out there that is rigging it on what to do with the boat. I know nothing about the waters you run in and I am not rigging this boat, so I have no control of what goes on it. His friends and local Marina have helped him make this choice. I put my 2 cents in, but he is the customer and I have to do the best I can to make him happy and give him my advice along the way. Hopefully with the fuel tanks moved forward, only using a 5" setback and maybe some other weight moved forward it should work out, but I don't know your waters, so he needs friend's like you to best advice him on that. He is lucky to have friend's like you who care.

Understood, I didn't know where the advice to put a 400 on it was coming from. The friend of mine that told me about it (Steve) said he told him not to do it - Steve is my friend that bought my Talon 22, and also owned the all red Talon 22 with twin 2.5/280SS, so he knows these boats on the waters we run as well. I know the shop very well that is rigging the boat, and I know they have not recommended the 400. He must have guys in his ear that have never owned a 22 Talon telling him that is the setup to have. I only know Rich from running into him at my buddy's shop (the one rigging the boat), or once in a while on the Delta. If you could, have him contact me, I'd like to talk him out of what will be a big mistake. My # is 925-963-1927. I don't know that he will listen to me either, after Steve already told him it was a stupid move, but all I can do is try! - Dale

[HydroSkreamin]

What I don't understand here is why everyone is so scared of the 400R or has an opinion that has never driven one. I can tell you from first hand experience the 400R will kick the crap out of a stock 300XS or 300X, and I certainly wouldn't be afraid to put it against a DBR modded 300XS, either. You do realize it makes boost at 1000 RPM, right? And spins 7000 RPM? This gives it excellent "torque quality" over conventional 2-strokes. The 400R makes more power EVERYWHERE than a 300XS or 300X.

Now, before anyone gets uptight, I've been modifying and racing 2-strokes of all kinds over my career, from dirt bikes, to sleds, to tunnel and drag boats, so I am no stranger to hot 2-strokes. There is no denying the torque curve of the supercharged 4-stroke, whether it's a clamp-on or a stern-drive. I also don't realize how people think it's OK to put two 280's on one of these with 10" setbacks (870+ pounds bare even for 2 light 2.5's), but one 400R at 680 lbs is somehow going to wreck the handling of the boat.

Let's look at what is included in the weight of the 400R: 5" setback built in. That's right, all Verado's have 5" of setback built in, so make sure to add the weight of your 5"-10" setback bracket you'll be adding to your 535 lb 300XS. I just weighed a 10" fixed setback bracket off my Eliminator at 40 lbs, so let's say a 5" would be 30 lbs. The steering is also integrated into the Verado, so make sure to add the weight of your steering to the 300XS, especially if you are adding wing plates (At least 35 lbs for 2 rams and wing plates). Don't forget your 3-gallon oil tank/bracket/lines/oil (~25 lbs). So now we have the 300XS dressed in the same state as the 400R comes factory, and the weight is 625 lbs. You don't think an extra 100 horses will carry the extra 55 lbs? I know that it will, and have experienced it.

All I'm asking is to think a little outside the box. You don't have to like the 400R for yourself, but they run way better than you think. I think Tony will tell you the DCB M29 does well with them over 300XS's, and you can't ignore the Nordic 29' deckboat that runs 102 (Now; the article shows 100 before new props) with a pair.http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?136974-New-Nordic-deck-boat-with-twin-400-s/page2

Rayzor, I love both of your boats, you have done a great job with them, so I have great respect for you, but please go for a ride in the 318 Skater or the M29 DCB before you cement your opinion on what a 400R will or will not do. If the 400R Sporty is set up at the right height, is propped right, and isn't hung way off the back, it works quite well. If Todd can provide where the CG needs to be, and the rigger hits that number, there is no reason why one of these awesome new 22's that are being built will not perform.

[JPEROG]

What I don't understand here is why everyone is so scared of the 400R or has an opinion that has never driven one. I can tell you from first hand experience the 400R will kick the crap out of a stock 300XS or 300X, and I certainly wouldn't be afraid to put it against a DBR modded 300XS, either. You do realize it makes boost at 1000 RPM, right? And spins 7000 RPM? This gives it excellent "torque quality" over conventional 2-strokes. The 400R makes more power EVERYWHERE than a 300XS or 300X.

Now, before anyone gets uptight, I've been modifying and racing 2-strokes of all kinds over my career, from dirt bikes, to sleds, to tunnel and drag boats, so I am no stranger to hot 2-strokes. There is no denying the torque curve of the supercharged 4-stroke, whether it's a clamp-on or a stern-drive. I also don't realize how people think it's OK to put two 280's on one of these with 10" setbacks (870+ pounds bare even for 2 light 2.5's), but one 400R at 680 lbs is somehow going to wreck the handling of the boat.

Let's look at what is included in the weight of the 400R: 5" setback built in. That's right, all Verado's have 5" of setback built in, so make sure to add the weight of your 5"-10" setback bracket you'll be adding to your 535 lb 300XS. I just weighed a 10" fixed setback bracket off my Eliminator at 40 lbs, so let's say a 5" would be 30 lbs. The steering is also integrated into the Verado, so make sure to add the weight of your steering to the 300XS, especially if you are adding wing plates (At least 35 lbs for 2 rams and wing plates). Don't forget your 3-gallon oil tank/bracket/lines/oil (~25 lbs). So now we have the 300XS dressed in the same state as the 400R comes factory, and the weight is 625 lbs. You don't think an extra 100 horses will carry the extra 55 lbs? I know that it will, and have experienced it.

All I'm asking is to think a little outside the box. You don't have to like the 400R for yourself, but they run way better than you think. I think Tony will tell you the DCB M29 does well with them over 300XS's, and you can't ignore the Nordic 29' deckboat that runs 102 (Now; the article shows 100 before new props) with a pair.http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?136974-New-Nordic-deck-boat-with-twin-400-s/page2

Rayzor, I love both of your boats, you have done a great job with them, so I have great respect for you, but please go for a ride in the 318 Skater or the M29 DCB before you cement your opinion on what a 400R will or will not do. If the 400R Sporty is set up at the right height, is propped right, and isn't hung way off the back, it works quite well. If Todd can provide where the CG needs to be, and the rigger hits that number, there is no reason why one of these awesome new 22's that are being built will not perform.

Let me know what single engine application has been proven to be faster then a 300X. I would be all for supporting new product options but to my knowledge (other then a very heavy boat), nobody has seen results that warrant the effort and cost involved. The testing that I have first hand access with didn't play out-

Joe

[Rayzor]

What I don't understand here is why everyone is so scared of the 400R or has an opinion that has never driven one. I can tell you from first hand experience the 400R will kick the crap out of a stock 300XS or 300X, and I certainly wouldn't be afraid to put it against a DBR modded 300XS, either. You do realize it makes boost at 1000 RPM, right? And spins 7000 RPM? This gives it excellent "torque quality" over conventional 2-strokes. The 400R makes more power EVERYWHERE than a 300XS or 300X.

Now, before anyone gets uptight, I've been modifying and racing 2-strokes of all kinds over my career, from dirt bikes, to sleds, to tunnel and drag boats, so I am no stranger to hot 2-strokes. There is no denying the torque curve of the supercharged 4-stroke, whether it's a clamp-on or a stern-drive. I also don't realize how people think it's OK to put two 280's on one of these with 10" setbacks (870+ pounds bare even for 2 light 2.5's), but one 400R at 680 lbs is somehow going to wreck the handling of the boat.

Let's look at what is included in the weight of the 400R: 5" setback built in. That's right, all Verado's have 5" of setback built in, so make sure to add the weight of your 5"-10" setback bracket you'll be adding to your 535 lb 300XS. I just weighed a 10" fixed setback bracket off my Eliminator at 40 lbs, so let's say a 5" would be 30 lbs. The steering is also integrated into the Verado, so make sure to add the weight of your steering to the 300XS, especially if you are adding wing plates (At least 35 lbs for 2 rams and wing plates). Don't forget your 3-gallon oil tank/bracket/lines/oil (~25 lbs). So now we have the 300XS dressed in the same state as the 400R comes factory, and the weight is 625 lbs. You don't think an extra 100 horses will carry the extra 55 lbs? I know that it will, and have experienced it.

All I'm asking is to think a little outside the box. You don't have to like the 400R for yourself, but they run way better than you think. I think Tony will tell you the DCB M29 does well with them over 300XS's, and you can't ignore the Nordic 29' deckboat that runs 102 (Now; the article shows 100 before new props) with a pair.http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?136974-New-Nordic-deck-boat-with-twin-400-s/page2

Rayzor, I love both of your boats, you have done a great job with them, so I have great respect for you, but please go for a ride in the 318 Skater or the M29 DCB before you cement your opinion on what a 400R will or will not do. If the 400R Sporty is set up at the right height, is propped right, and isn't hung way off the back, it works quite well. If Todd can provide where the CG needs to be, and the rigger hits that number, there is no reason why one of these awesome new 22's that are being built will not perform.

The 400R would still be mounted to an electric/hydraulic adjustable jackplate, so that weight stays the same (maybe 5-10#s difference between a 5" and a 10" setback). If they run SeaStar hydraulic steering (which is what is planned to rig the XS with), the weight is minimal - probably 10#s. So, you are only looking at a maximum of 20 #s additional in rigging hardware for an XS vs 400R. So there is still 160#s of added weight hanging back of the jackplate with the 400R - that is SUBSTANTIAL on a tunnel as small as the 22 Talon. Yes, I know there are plenty of 22 Talons with twin 2.5/280s on the back, but they are twins, with two props spinning back there to help carry the transom. Plus, I never said a twin 2.5 22 Talon would be a good Delta boat - because they aren't. Would a single 400R work on a 22 Talon, YES, and it would probably be very fast on smooth water. BUT, the Delta has a LOT of wakeboard/wakesurf boats and large cruisers (30'-50') that you cannot avoid going over their wakes, as the channels are typically only 100'-300' wide. Even a well balanced 22 Talon has difficulties getting over these wakes, much less one that has a very aft cg. I owned my 22 Talon for one season, having stuffed the bow on numerous occasions at slower speeds, and finally once at high speed (see the results of the 80mph stuff) - before selling it and stepping up to a 28 Skater to handle the water conditions of the Delta. It's not about performance, it's about Rich ending up with a good, all around boat for the water conditions he is going to encounter. You've got to also remember that he only has a few seasons in his 21 Superboat (85mph rig), so stepping from that to a 105mph 22 Talon w/ a 300XS is already going to be a huge jump - much less putting him in a 115mph rig with a crappy cg. And don't take my posts as saying the 400R is no good, as that is not what I'm getting at in this thread. I just don't feel it is the right application for this setup, knowing the conditions the boat is going to be used in.

[HydroSkreamin]

Let me know what single engine application has been proven to be faster then a 300X. I would be all for supporting new product options but to my knowledge (other then a very heavy boat), nobody has seen results that warrant the effort and cost involved. The testing that I have first hand access with didn't play out-

Joe

Joe, I can't give specifics on anything with a single, all I have experience with is twins. I very much respect your opinion as well, and hope to have some info to share on a single setup as well as I will most likely be putting one on my 23 Eliminator this summer. I have spoken with Bob Leach about it, and he's given me a LCG to hit, and I'm laying things out to achieve that. I will share the good and bad of that install when the time comes.

Is the single application you are referring to the Lanier? Why did they not share the issues with that install?

It's not about performance, it's about Rich ending up with a good, all around boat for the water conditions he is going to encounter. You've got to also remember that he only has a few seasons in his 21 Superboat (85mph rig), so stepping from that to a 105mph 22 Talon w/ a 300XS is already going to be a huge jump - much less putting him in a 115mph rig with a crappy cg. And don't take my posts as saying the 400R is no good, as that is not what I'm getting at in this thread. I just don't feel it is the right application for this setup, knowing the conditions the boat is going to be used in.

I get where you are coming from, and understand your point. I can see where the higher CG could cause issues, and thanks for clarifying about your opinion of a twin setup on the Delta. Sounds like some challenging boating. Glad you came out OK after your Talon stuffing experience.

[Dave Strong]

The 400R would still be mounted to an electric/hydraulic adjustable jackplate, so that weight stays the same (maybe 5-10#s difference between a 5" and a 10" setback). If they run SeaStar hydraulic steering (which is what is planned to rig the XS with), the weight is minimal - probably 10#s. So, you are only looking at a maximum of 20 #s additional in rigging hardware for an XS vs 400R. So there is still 160#s of added weight hanging back of the jackplate with the 400R - that is SUBSTANTIAL on a tunnel as small as the 22 Talon. Yes, I know there are plenty of 22 Talons with twin 2.5/280s on the back, but they are twins, with two props spinning back there to help carry the transom. Plus, I never said a twin 2.5 22 Talon would be a good Delta boat - because they aren't. Would a single 400R work on a 22 Talon, YES, and it would probably be very fast on smooth water. BUT, the Delta has a LOT of wakeboard/wakesurf boats and large cruisers (30'-50') that you cannot avoid going over their wakes, as the channels are typically only 100'-300' wide. Even a well balanced 22 Talon has difficulties getting over these wakes, much less one that has a very aft cg. I owned my 22 Talon for one season, having stuffed the bow on numerous occasions at slower speeds, and finally once at high speed (see the results of the 80mph stuff) - before selling it and stepping up to a 28 Skater to handle the water conditions of the Delta. It's not about performance, it's about Rich ending up with a good, all around boat for the water conditions he is going to encounter. You've got to also remember that he only has a few seasons in his 21 Superboat (85mph rig), so stepping from that to a 105mph 22 Talon w/ a 300XS is already going to be a huge jump - much less putting him in a 115mph rig with a crappy cg. And don't take my posts as saying the 400R is no good, as that is not what I'm getting at in this thread. I just don't feel it is the right application for this setup, knowing the conditions the boat is going to be used in.

I assume those are the pics after the 80mph stuff?

Dave

[eli]

we will all be waiting here for the results 400R 23 Daytona have her ready for 3 lakes

[Spectre Powerboats]

Dale, I will pm you Rich's number. Thank you

[Spectre Powerboats]

If the water is as rough as you say it is out there Rayzor. He should take a Talon 22 XL and put a 300 or 400 on it.

[Scream And Fly]

When I first saw Talon boats, I called them the "Battlestar Galactica boat" because they almost looked like space ships. They are one of the most unique looking boats ever made. Just so cool!

[Dave Strong]

Mother nature rough water and Wake Boat and large Cruiser rough water are 2 different things. I will take nature made rough water any day. JMO.

Dave

[Rayzor]

If the water is as rough as you say it is out there Rayzor. He should take a Talon 22 XL and put a 300 or 400 on it.

Yes, that would be my preference for the Delta if wanting to stay with a single outboard (300XS still). A lot of the Delta is glass smooth which bring out all the wakeboard/wakesurf boats, and the main channels that get big wind chop (San Joaquin River and Sacramento River) have all the big cruisers. There's a lot of the Delta backwaters that he can run no problem - the same waters I used to run my Mirage on - but those channels limit you to where you can go. For the way I like to boat - minimum cruise speed of 75/80mph - the smallest boat you can safely run the Delta in is a 28 Skater. If you've followed my threads, I tried like hell the past couple years to have a much smaller boat than my 30 Skater for my "daily driver" boat, but none of them worked. I tried a 21' Trick/300XS, then built that 23MTR/twin 200XSs, and finally got back into another 28 Skater for my secondary boat, as none of the others were big enough/capable enough to cruise all of the Delta safely at 75 and above. The water conditions here can really bite you because one minute you're cruising along on relatively smooth water, then all of a sudden there's 3' rollers in front of you that came out of nowhere. Because there are so many channels, boats/cruisers that are throwing large rollers can not even be in site, as they turned off onto another channel before you ever even saw them - but their wakes still get you!

[Rayzor]

Mother nature rough water and Wake Boat and large Cruiser rough water are 2 different things. I will take nature made rough water any day. JMO.

Dave

I agree, I'll take consistent mother-nature driven rough water over wakes any day. With the mother-nature made stuff, it always gets rough progressively, giving you the option to turn around or take another route. With wakes, you're fine one minute, and screwed the next!