1973 Evinrude 135 hp deiseling

**geichelman** · 07-24-2016, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by geichelman

Hi King, I used white paint, but also horizontally white tape -just so I could find the marker when it was supposed to be on 24 instead of 60-70. I did check the wire going into the ignition coil and I had the same high readings on the wheel. When the safety switch was open, I got no readings. When I closed the switch I got readings- it is just that they were quite high. It also seemed odd that after I swapped the 2 and 4 plug wires for the 1 and 3, I got a pure tdc mark with no advance with the throttle on high. When I set the throttle lever to idle, I got the 24 "right on". Anyway, all parts are now on their way to CDI. As many times as I checked and rechecked; changed power packs; changed flywheels and all else new, my thought is that there is a timer sensor issue. I'm anxious to see what CDI comes up with.

Hi again King,

While the parts are back at CDI (they said that their sensor timing base, stator and the Sierra Power Pack were good and all of my new coils are bad -huh?). The timing coming into the coil is "as bad" as that timing out. Anyway today I put on a used coil from an 85 hp V-4 OMC engine and went back to the old sensor base and coils. I still got the same thing - an extremely high advance. Yes the marks are very white. The safety switch which keeps the throttle level in neutral for start is the one that I took off and set in a closed position - is that bad? On the subject of switching the sensor wires connections: when I swapped the 1/3 and with the 2/4, I got the correct timing marks, but they were reversed. With the swap, where I should (desirably) have 4 degrees, I had 24 degrees and where I should have had 24 at open throttle, I had 4 degrees. Where would you go from that? I am very confused. It seems like a V-8 auto engine that skipped a couple of links in the timing chain. Help!

**Steve2ManyBoats** · 07-25-2016, 08:42 AM

I've been following this unfortunate saga of despair for awhile. Man, you get serious points for not setting the thing on fire. Since I've spent a lot of time with older crossflow stuff, I think there are a few of the diagnostics that may point to the problem.

1. Since I've never seen or heard of flywheel trigger magnets moving (they're molded in place), I think you can safely rule that out.

2. Coils can't affect timing. They either fire or they don't. They may be weak and fire poorly, but a bad coil can't change a motor's timing, so let's rule that out.

3. Same thing holds for power packs. Since this is an early crossflow, I assume you have 2 power packs, not 1 like the newer crossflows. Someone earlier suggested that you put 4 timing marks on your flywheel, 90 degrees apart so that you can check timing on each cylinder. This is a good suggestion for two reasons. First, if your powerpacks may be firing unevenly (unlikely). Second, (and more likely) they may be double firing. I have had this same problem on several crossflows, both V4s and V6s. Double firing of packs can cause all sorts of timing problems and kill a motor in short order. It's pretty easy to detect double firing with correct marks and a good timing light. This may be part of your problem, but unlikely all of it.

4. Massive timing fproblems are often traceable to a mangled woodruff key on the crank. Since you have said that the keyway, crank and flywheel are all OK, let's rule this out.

4. Since your motor is so out of spec timing-wise, I suspect, as have others on this post, that you have a significant wiring problem or a linkage problem. Your motor seems to be about 60 degrees out of time. A wiring problem will most likely result on a V4 motor being 90 degrees out of time, not 60.

Sooo...

5. I vote for a linkage problem. I may have missed it, but did you post any pictures of your throttle and ignition linkage? If not, please post some pics of your linkage so we can see if you have a mechanical problem that's causing your timing problem.

Just my $0.02

Steve2ManyBoats.

**geichelman** · 07-25-2016, 10:23 AM

Hi Steve,

You are "dead correct", it has been a saga, and I don't know why I have put the money into it, except that it has been a pretty good motor.

1- I have two flywheels - one with a small crack, so when the first CDI tech suggested that this could be the problem, I got a second flywheel - same issue, no change.

2- I agree on the coils. They haven't affected anything - good or bad.

3- This motor has one power pack and I have changed power packs from the old to a new Sierra, with no change. As I have gone around the flywheel while it is cranking, I haven't seen more than one flash - sometimes a skip, but no double that I have seen.

4- At the start of this mess, I didn't have the flywheel nut to full torque and broke a couple of woodruff keys before I got smart and checked the torque. Now, I tighten to 105 ft lbs, and it is staying in place. The key is good, but I'll check it again. I have four extras!

4a - I believe my linkage is good. Everything works smooth and the remote controls are disconnected. The wiring, I'm not too sure of. I have checked everything that I can see, but I haven't gone to the main bundle. I have put a new key switch on it, thinking that could be the problem. I guess that the main wiring of concern would have to be the stator or sensor base wiring - that is OK, but beyond that and everything that connects to the power pack, I don't know. Any thoughts on where else to look?

5- I have had the throttle linkage off, cleaned it and re-oiled and put it back on. I thought that my linkage spring might be broken, but it seems OK. What else about it is that sensitive?

6- I have wondered about the spaces between all of the magnets, but I have lightly sanded those attempt a clean, but that didn't affect anything either.

7- As I said, you are "dead on". It is a saga and I'm getting tired. I'm calling CDI today and asking them to return my parts. I thought that CDI might be the problem since they work off 30 - 40 ohms instead of the OMC 7-9 ohms, but there didn't seem to be a change there either.

I haven't tried a photo post, but I'll give it a try. Thank you for the info. If you have any other thoughts, I sure will appreciate them. Thanks again!

geichelman

**racervboat** · 07-25-2016, 03:11 PM

does this motor back fire when it does run? A dyno would help trouble shoot this so you could put a pretty good load on it so it does not take off and scream wide open.

**geichelman** · 07-25-2016, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by racervboat

does this motor back fire when it does run? A dyno would help trouble shoot this so you could put a pretty good load on it so it does not take off and scream wide open.

It doesn't run.

**racervboat** · 07-25-2016, 04:11 PM

beginning of this post you said it starts in neutral and races like its in full throttle???

**powerabout** · 07-25-2016, 06:54 PM

I'd be trying another omc sensor assembly

**geichelman** · 07-25-2016, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by racervboat

beginning of this post you said it starts in neutral and races like its in full throttle???

That was in the "old days". I have spent a lot of money to bring it to its current problem ----- a timing issue. Sorry, I'm not "playing" with the Scream and Fly guys!!!!! It won't start and the timing is gross.

**geichelman** · 07-25-2016, 08:11 PM

Apparently the sensor assemblies are an issue. The OMC is a 7-9 ohm assy and the CDI (which I bought @ $300) is a 30 to 40 ohm assy. Anyway, there is no difference in performance. They both give me as very high advance timing mark - where the engine can't possibly run. I wish it were as easy as buying a new timing assembly. Thanks for the comments.

**King Dad** · 07-26-2016, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by geichelman

Hi again King,

While the parts are back at CDI (they said that their sensor timing base, stator and the Sierra Power Pack were good and all of my new coils are bad -huh?). The timing coming into the coil is "as bad" as that timing out. Anyway today I put on a used coil from an 85 hp V-4 OMC engine and went back to the old sensor base and coils. I still got the same thing - an extremely high advance. Yes the marks are very white. The safety switch which keeps the throttle level in neutral for start is the one that I took off and set in a closed position - is that bad? On the subject of switching the sensor wires connections: when I swapped the 1/3 and with the 2/4, I got the correct timing marks, but they were reversed. With the swap, where I should (desirably) have 4 degrees, I had 24 degrees and where I should have had 24 at open throttle, I had 4 degrees. Where would you go from that? I am very confused. It seems like a V-8 auto engine that skipped a couple of links in the timing chain. Help!

Let's go thru this one more time. Not to argue with those who also desire to help, However, the sensor magnets I referenced earlier (you know), that are "pressed" into the inner hub and can become loose/slip are not on this engine. I think those were for later V-4 and 6 loopers. Pretend I didn't bring that comment to the table. My bad!

The safety switch your referenced about is so that the throttle is not too advanced when started. . Located on the side of the block, I often just ground out the wire. That wire is the ground for the starter solenoid. I never figured out just what it's purpose was anyway. You can live without that switch being active. More throttle for starting is always good.

One power pak ignitions... The power pack cover has a colored circuit for all the wires. Sensors, 1 thru 4 and specific colors. (Mercury calls theirs "triggers") They are the coils that make low (3 to 5 volts AC) voltage to tell the pack when to fire. Since the magnets on the inside of the flywheel are what "activate" the sensor coils, the magnet for #1 cylinder is located are in relation with the flywheel key on the crank. Hence, matched to the #1 piston @ TDC. The early sensors were installed on the timer base with screws compared to later timer bases which was "potted material" and non-adjustable . The timer base you have very likely needs to have it's sensor coils adjusted distance wise close to the flywheel magnets. Too far away and the voltage wont get generated and also cranking rpms also will effect sensor coil output, BTW. and IF someone were to loosen the phillip screws and move the coils too close, then the magnets would hit/rub the coils and be damaged. So, OMC came up with a large washer, with specific measurements to "adjust" those style sensors . You do need to be sure that adjustment is correct. Now, Is that the source of the "miss-fire" you have?,. No.I don't think so. Look at the sensor wires that attach to the pak. The cover has the info which color, ie: white/black vs black/white goes on sensor pack lead for the #1 cylinder or whatever cylinder you are referencing... .I'm just guessing on which wires/colors...The cover has that info. .. So, If the coil ohms out, and the magnets are good (not damaged/cracked) then 3 to 5 volts AC should be generated for each sensor as the flywheel magnet passes the coil when cranking the engine over. . That voltage goes to the pack, tells the pack to send all of it's stored voltage (created by the stator and outer ring of flywheel magnets) to each ignition coil.Blah, blah, etc.. So, riddle me this... Did anyone ever have the sensor coils removed from the timer base????? And not reinstall them back on the correct location?? And why would anyone ever take them off?? .Ive never done it, never even thought about removing them but could they be removed and... re-installed all F'd up?? They are not serviceable but a fledgling outboard mechanic could, perhaps, remove the sensors maybe, AND, if you now are trying to match-up the right colored wires to a sensor that is in the incorrect location, then the timing would be off. Could that happen?? Perhaps. Other than that, and somehow the incorrect flywheel, I guess, ????? I can't seem to visualize how you have this issue. Are you sure the flywheel is correct for your motor?? Send us pictures of the timer base, flywheel, power pack cover. etc... There's something incorrect here and we'll get there.

**geichelman** · 07-26-2016, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by King Dad

Let's go thru this one more time. Not to argue with those who also desire to help, However, the sensor magnets I referenced earlier (you know), that are "pressed" into the inner hub and can become loose/slip are not on this engine. I think those were for later V-4 and 6 loopers. Pretend I didn't bring that comment to the table. My bad!

The safety switch your referenced about is so that the throttle is not too advanced when started. . Located on the side of the block, I often just ground out the wire. That wire is the ground for the starter solenoid. I never figured out just what it's purpose was anyway. You can live without that switch being active. More throttle for starting is always good.

One power pak ignitions... The power pack cover has a colored circuit for all the wires. Sensors, 1 thru 4 and specific colors. (Mercury calls theirs "triggers") They are the coils that make low (3 to 5 volts AC) voltage to tell the pack when to fire. Since the magnets on the inside of the flywheel are what "activate" the sensor coils, the magnet for #1 cylinder is located are in relation with the flywheel key on the crank. Hence, matched to the #1 piston @ TDC. The early sensors were installed on the timer base with screws compared to later timer bases which was "potted material" and non-adjustable . The timer base you have very likely needs to have it's sensor coils adjusted distance wise close to the flywheel magnets. Too far away and the voltage wont get generated and also cranking rpms also will effect sensor coil output, BTW. and IF someone were to loosen the phillip screws and move the coils too close, then the magnets would hit/rub the coils and be damaged. So, OMC came up with a large washer, with specific measurements to "adjust" those style sensors . You do need to be sure that adjustment is correct. Now, Is that the source of the "miss-fire" you have?,. No.I don't think so. Look at the sensor wires that attach to the pak. The cover has the info which colo<script id="gpt-impl-0.19843801122959015" src="http://partner.googleadservices.com/gpt/pubads_impl_92.js"></script>r, ie: white/black vs black/white goes on sensor pack lead for the #1 cylinder or whatever cylinder you are referencing... .I'm just guessing on which wires/colors...The cover has that info. .. So, If the coil ohms out, and the magnets are good (not damaged/cracked) then 3 to 5 volts AC should be generated for each sensor as the flywheel magnet passes the coil when cranking the engine over. . That voltage goes to the pack, tells the pack to send all of it's stored voltage (created by the stator and outer ring of flywheel magnets) to each ignition coil.Blah, blah, etc.. So, riddle me this... Did anyone ever have the sensor coils removed from the timer base????? And not reinstall them back on the correct location?? And why would anyone ever take them off?? .Ive never done it, never even thought about removing them but could they be removed and... re-installed all F'd up?? They are not serviceable but a fledgling outboard mechanic could, perhaps, remove the sensors maybe, AND, if you now are trying to match-up the right colored wires to a sensor that is in the incorrect location, then the timing would be off. Could that happen?? Perhaps. Other than that, and somehow the incorrect flywheel, I guess, ????? I can't seem to visualize how you have this issue. Are you sure the flywheel is correct for your motor?? Send us pictures of the timer base, flywheel, power pack cover. etc... There's something incorrect here and we'll get there.

King, this whole thing just about "has me".

I bought the engine new in 1973 and no one has pulled the flywheel until I did about 6 months ago. I did change the power pack several years ago when it had a temperature issue that would give no power until it cooled (that was the problem) - and I have had no trouble since (with a newer OMC ) one. The timer base hasn't been "played" with and I found that the CDI potted one gave the same issue. My flywheel had a slight crack in the top and a CDI tech convinced me to get another one - which I did. The flywheel is identical to the original. That didn't make any difference.
Since all of my new stuff is back at CDI, I put all of the old back on with a better looking stator. The first stator got hot and leaked insulation, and shorted. You can imagine my disappointment when I got the same flash. It is about 90 degrees advanced. I have gone back to look at the wires, and the connection points all look (and feel) good. I'm puzzled.

If that isn't bad enough, I have a new computer that I have not been able to get to accept photos from my camera. I feel pretty stupid! ---- but I haven't given up yet. I did get a question about the quality of my timing light. It is a Chinese replacement to my SUN, but it seems to work. I wish that I could find a bulb for my SUN light.

**King Dad** · 07-26-2016, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by geichelman

King, this whole thing just about "has me".

I bought the engine new in 1973 and no one has pulled the flywheel until I did about 6 months ago. I did change the power pack several years ago when it had a temperature issue that would give no power until it cooled (that was the problem) - and I have had no trouble since (with a newer OMC ) one. The timer base hasn't been "played" with and I found that the CDI potted one gave the same issue. My flywheel had a slight crack in the top and a CDI tech convinced me to get another one - which I did. The flywheel is identical to the original. That didn't make any difference.
Since all of my new stuff is back at CDI, I put all of the old back on with a better looking stator. The first stator got hot and leaked insulation, and shorted. You can imagine my disappointment when I got the same flash. It is about 90 degrees advanced. I have gone back to look at the wires, and the connection points all look (and feel) good. I'm puzzled.

If that isn't bad enough, I have a new computer that I have not been able to get to accept photos from my camera. I feel pretty stupid! ---- but I haven't given up yet. I did get a question about the quality of my timing light. It is a Chinese replacement to my SUN, but it seems to work. I wish that I could find a bulb for my SUN light.

So are the sensor wires connected correctly to the pack?? Each one is color coded AND has "sensor 1" marked on it, same with "sensor 2", etc.... ?? We need to know that this question is accurate! Yes, No??

Unplug the large red cannon plug. Use a remote starter button to crank starter. Eliminates anything else .. Don't now why this could be an issue but WTF?? Un=Plugg the darn thing!

Peak-reading voltmeter can measure the 3 to 5 volts AC out of each coil. Do you have the spark-plugs out when cranking?? Or in??

If it's out of time, then sensors are working (correct?) but ... not referenced to the flywheel/crankshaft correctly. You must have ..... bad sensors/timer base. or, bad power pack, or.. Bad/wrong/damaged flywheel/magnets .or, a machinist snuck into your shop and made a different crankshaft keyway late one night.... OR, Timing light giving you bad "readings" .and in-fact, everything is actually perfect...... right now. I would again, like to see your hardware. OR, Buy another motor and switch ignition parts OR, step up to a totally different engine and put this behind you. Sorry, that's the best I got!!

**geichelman** · 07-27-2016, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by geichelman

Hi again King,

While the parts are back at CDI (they said that their sensor timing base, stator and the Sierra Power Pack were good and all of my new coils are bad -huh?). The timing coming into the coil is "as bad" as that timing out. Anyway today I put on a used coil from an 85 hp V-4 OMC engine and went back to the old sensor base and coils. I still got the same thing - an extremely high advance. Yes the marks are very white. The safety switch which keeps the throttle level in neutral for start is the one that I took off and set in a closed position - is that bad? On the subject of switching the sensor wires connections: when I swapped the 1/3 and with the 2/4, I got the correct timing marks, but they were reversed. With the swap, where I should (desirably) have 4 degrees, I had 24 degrees and where I should have had 24 at open throttle, I had 4 degrees. Where would you go from that? I am very confused. It seems like a V-8 auto engine that skipped a couple of links in the timing chain. Help!

Hi King,

Don't go away - please.

Today, after checking all wires and their connections again, I cranked the motor and actually got a "timing mark" from the #1 coil of something slightly over 180 degrees advance. Of course, I can't believe it. I switched the 1 and 3 sensor wires on the power pack and that gave me TDC at full throttle and about 24 degrees at idle on #1; then I put the induction clamp on the #3 coil and it laid the marks exactly over the top of those for the #1 coil. With no change of sensor connection at the power pack, I placed the induction clamp on the #2 coil and got about 270 degrees - the #4 coil mark came in at 270 degrees also, with no change in the 1/3 sensor wires. If I get anything out of this experiment, it is bad power pack. The new one should be returning from CDI soon with their thoughts. Do you (or anyone else) have any quick comments.

I hope to be getting photos soon. Thank you for your patient help!

**racer** · 07-27-2016, 02:55 PM

I would start by trying a different light and make sure you have a good distance between each plug wire to make sure you are picking up the cylinder you are wanting to see. Plugs should be in the motor with wires attached or plug wires hooked to a spark tester. Another item of concern is you say that you have more advance when you move the throttle to idle, we need photos of the linkage. Assume you have verified correct rotation of engine. Yes a standard starter/bendix would not engage reversed but I have seen stranger things.

So from what I read here you have 2 flywheels/timer bases/power packs that do the same thing, odds of this are slim so something is missing.

**geichelman** · 07-27-2016, 09:43 PM

Thank you Racer, I have not used a different timing light, but I have been careful about the spacing between the wires. I don't have the plugs in, but I do have #8 wire "pushed" in the plug socket and grounded to the motor block - not a spark tester. Photos are coming - I am a little behind times on the computer and I haven't been able to load the photos with out loading the whole file. Also, I have the new parts at CDI right now being checked out and hoping for their thoughts - timer base, stator, power pack and coils. I do have the correct rotation. Thank you for your comments and interest. I will get photos up soon.