Wings?

[moparbarn]

The 2 versions of fiberglass wings were all the same but I was of the impression all of the wood boats were different.

The story I remember overhearing when I worked for Dave Craig was that the wood boats were drawn out on sheets of plywood laid on the shop floor. Any changes or revisions were "eyeballed" until the lines looked right. I don't remember the man's name (this was while I was still in high school- middle/later 60's?), but they were talking about the full canopy "Miss Skyway". IF that conversation & my memory are correct, it's hard to believe any of the wood wings were the same.

[Jimboat]

As I recall from discussions with Bob, they made modifications to each of the wood boats (some mods worked, some didn't), until they started with the glass boats.

[lilabner]

Bob & Dave's legend is a great one. While there may not have been detailed lift calculations at the time, it is clear that the Switzer brothers were the first to recognize and capitalize on the benefits of aerodynamics in performance boat design. The shape may have been somewhat arbitrary, but the Switzers knew that planform, thickness and height all affected aerodynamic overall lift. The brothers Switzer were the first designers to realize that significant aerodynamic lift in a hull design would reduce hydrodynamic drag significantly - and they proved it on their first hull! Incredibly, their first boat had no method controlling angle of attack (no power trim), so driving was a delicate balance to prevent 'over-flying' the hull.

I don't agree with you on them being the first. You are forgetting about Ted Jones, among others that built Unlimiteds, alky hydros, limited inboards, Catamarans, and such. I was at Lake X for the first 6 hour the Wing ran, and also for the kilos. A Powercat driven by Jon Culver kept challenging the Wing with Bakos driving. They got 6 runs each, just because it was EC's playground. No one else did. Jon blew the Powercat over on his final run around 80 mph. They sent the wing out again and he beat Jon's time which was fastest to that point. At least that's what we were told. All those guys dealt with lift and aerodynamics. I got to hang out with Ted Jones for most of a year in 67, his stories were amazing. Dave and Bob were just first with wing thinking.

[lilabner]

The story I remember overhearing when I worked for Dave Craig was that the wood boats were drawn out on sheets of plywood laid on the shop floor. Any changes or revisions were "eyeballed" until the lines looked right. I don't remember the man's name (this was while I was still in high school- middle/later 60's?), but they were talking about the full canopy "Miss Skyway". IF that conversation & my memory are correct, it's hard to believe any of the wood wings were the same.

Was that Ed Carhart?

[moparbarn]

Was that Ed Carhart?

Never knew who he was, only remember seeing him twice. He wasn't a local, & he only showed up when the Miss Skyway wing was at Skyway Marine, & then not every time it was there. At least one time was for the Gold Coast marathon, maybe both....never saw him work on a boat, seemed to be there to kinda "oversee" things. Always alone almost seemed like he was protecting someone's investment, if that helps. Average build, brown hair, crewcut, usually in slacks, loafers & izod shirt. Never saw a corporate logo anywhere, either at Dave's or the races. Do you have a pic of Ed?
I wasn't paying him any mind, I was just a 15 yr. old kid mesmerized by the WING I thought growing up 2 doors down from Brooke & Ronnie Russell & just up the canal from Ricky Lindheimer & Allan Revel (sp?) was about as cool as it got, but they took a back seat to working at Dave's! Heck, I used to sneak into the cockpit of the wing during lunch & make motor noises - I had it bad - LOL

[2us70]

I went to high school with Ronnie ,crewed and co-drove for Brooke in the Miami to New York boat. I worked for the Lindheimer's furniture company for a short time in 68. I also sort of co-drove with Alan Rebell once at Pelican Harbor. The boat broke just before my stint and that ended our day. I think it was my motor on his Harry Schoell tunnel boat. I don't know where any of those guys are except Rickey. Rickey unfortunately died quite young from an overdose.

[2us70]

Back in the day I had a half baked idea in my head that a tunnel boat was sort of a wing with the upper and lower surfaces just not opposite each other. Was I on the right track? The early tunnel boat builders seemed to just guess about lift and pressure. Some like Molinari got it pretty right and some missed by a mile.

As I recall discussions with Bob, they made modifications to each of the wood boats (some mods worked, some didn't), until they started with the glass boats.

[Jimboat]

Back in the day I had a half baked idea in my head that a tunnel boat was sort of a wing with the upper and lower surfaces just not opposite each other. Was I on the right track?

Yes!

The early tunnel boat builders seemed to just guess about lift and pressure. Some like Molinari got it pretty right and some missed by a mile.

Yes. A lot of 'trial and error' processes to get to the right design.

[GENE LANHAM]

Back in the day I had a half baked idea in my head that a tunnel boat was sort of a wing with the upper and lower surfaces just not opposite each other. Was I on the right track? The early tunnel boat builders seemed to just guess about lift and pressure. Some like Molinari got it pretty right and some missed by a mile.

Aerodynamically----"Give me enough horsepower (speed) and I can make a barn door fly!!". But control is where it gets tricky-----

A good read on the history of the airfoil---


http://www.flyingmag.com/technicalit...story-airfoils

[GENE LANHAM]

And when Dave Switzer came up with the idea, he went to a local airport, got a piece of wing I think off a Piper of some type, mounted it away from a wall, sent Bob to get a roll of butcher paper, taped it on the wall, shined a light on the wing section so a shadow would project on the butcher paper, and drew the shape for the very famous and beautiful Switzer Wing. Now all you Einsteins and Von Braun's get a hold of yourselves and tell us where all the math got into this design..He never even had plans!!

Butch---In 1961, the piece of wing was probably from an Aeronca--flat on the bottom, so it was easier to build from wood---The Clark Y Airfoil!!

[lilabner]

Butch---In 1961, the piece of wing was probably from an Aeronca--flat on the bottom, so it was easier to build from wood---The Clark Y Airfoil!!

You could be right Gene. At the first OFF at JJ Muggs in Jupiter, I was at a table with Fred Darwick, Bakos, Dave and Bob Switzer, and a couple others. I will have to find the picture. Dave told us He didn't know what kind of wing it was, he said maybe a Piper something.

[lilabner]

This is such a great thread with great people that were actually racing back when the Wing was developed. I disagreed with Jimboat on a minor point, but I know he's smarter than I am on any boat design. My point was about one of my old friends Ted Jones. This guy was so far ahead of others. Unlimiteds have to fly also, and every hydro conventional or cabover had to fly. Ted is considered the father of the 3 point hydro. He made speed happen. Remember this boat?

In the last race of the season, HAWAII KAI III bowed out in style, retaining her Sahara Cup title while placing first, first and second in heat action. The KAI needed only to finish the last heat to win the race on points. Jack Regas nevertheless staged a thrilling down-to-the-wire duel with Brien Wygle and THRIFTWAY TOO in the final stanza, which was run on rough water and in almost total darkness!
As if all of this wasn’t enough, HAWAII KAI III then became the fastest propeller-driven boat in the world. On November 29-30, 1957, the KAI raised the mile straightaway record by nine miles an hour to 187.627, a mark which would stand until 1960. The “Pink Lady” also raised the world kilometer record by ten miles per hour to 195.329, a mark which would stand until 1962.
According to the American Power Boat Association rules, a straightaway record is determined by the average of two runs in opposite directions over the same certified course.
During the time trials off Sand Point, in Seattle on Lake Washington, the KAI made one pass through the kilometer trap at 199.726 miles an hour. The boat’s raw time for this run was 11.162 seconds, which under APBA rules was rounded off to 11.2 seconds for the 199 mph clocking. If the raw time had been used, the speed would have been 200.409 instead. Thus, HAWAII KAI III was the first propeller-driven craft to turn an “official” 200 miles an hour.

[Jimboat]

I don't agree with you on them being the first. You are forgetting about Ted Jones...Dave and Bob were just first with wing thinking.

I certainly agree that Ted was a true inovator! He introduced so many new concepts to performance hull design. I've always been impressed with the simple, clearly defined recognition by Bob and Dave of 'flying' and a 'wing' to boat design - such a true recognition of aerodynamic application!

Butch---In 1961, the piece of wing was probably from an Aeronca--flat on the bottom, so it was easier to build from wood

Gene, the Switzer Wing was indeed one of the positive camber ("flat on the bottom") aerofoil shapes, wasn't it? I've always assumed this, but can you confirm that this is true?


Also, re: performance, the thickness (t/c) of the aerofoil used would probably have been more significant that the specific NACA shape chosen.

[lilabner]

I certainly agree that Ted was a true inovator! He introduced so many new concepts to performance hull design. I've always been impressed with the simple, clearly defined recognition by Bob and Dave of a 'wing' to boat design - such a true recognition of aerodynamic application!

Gene, the Switzer Wing was indeed one of the "flat on the bottom" aerofoil shapes, wasn't it? I've always assumed this, but can you confirm that this is true?


Also, re: performance, the thickness (t/c) of the aerofoil used would probably have been more significant that the specific NACA shape chosen.

I was only 19 when i saw the first wing run at the Lake X Six Hour. It was a strange thing of beauty. I was also very lucky to be working for Dave Craig. We had a Wing a couple weeks later, although a very weird looking one with a Vee center section. Dave liked to let me drive all his race boats so he could see them run, the Wing included. Was I lucky or what?

[Powercat]

http://powercatboat.com/83a.jpg
Butch is correct, the Switzer's were not the first or the only ones to use a wing section in a boat for lift. They along with Ted Jones, my Dad Ray Leger, were all trying these design features
in boats built in the late 50's and early 60's. The photo linked above was the Power Cat my Dad built with a wing center section between the sponsons. This boat was built and tested in 1958-1959. Because the only available motors at that time were 70hp it did not have any advantage over the conventional cat, and the project was set aside. Some years latter one of my uncles took the boat and rigged it with some 135hp motors and it was able to reach speeds where lift was achieved, but by then the company was no longer involved in racing and the boat was scraped.
I have always felt that Mr. K's love of flying was the motivating influence behind all of these men. If he put the idea to them, as he had great influence over many boat builders, they each in turn followed thru with their own variations. http://www.powercatboat.com/race/6HourX2.jpg
Photo of Ray Leger, Ted Jones, Dave Craig and Chuck Mercereau 1960

Danny Leger
....................

I don't agree with you on them being the first. You are forgetting about Ted Jones, among others that built Unlimiteds, alky hydros, limited inboards, Catamarans, and such. I was at Lake X for the first 6 hour the Wing ran, and also for the kilos. A Powercat driven by Jon Culver kept challenging the Wing with Bakos driving. They got 6 runs each, just because it was EC's playground. No one else did. Jon blew the Powercat over on his final run around 80 mph. They sent the wing out again and he beat Jon's time which was fastest to that point. At least that's what we were told. All those guys dealt with lift and aerodynamics. I got to hang out with Ted Jones for most of a year in 67, his stories were amazing. Dave and Bob were just first with wing thinking.