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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILDMAN View Post
    Remember how bad the 20ft LCB ran with a 400? He ran 114 with a 300x and the best he saw with the 400 was 101. It's a full tunnel boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by JPEROG View Post
    He actually ran 120 with his LCB fishing boat and a stock X. The 400 was a disaster. Out of all of the boats tested at Fat Cat, one out of seven was faster with a single 400R Vs a single 300XS.
    Hey, guys, how about we try to help this SNF brother who is pioneering uncharted territory and could use some help. I can't think of two more knowledgeable guys that could have useful input on this.

    The fact that one Fat Cat actually was faster with a 400R says 6 other setups were wrong, so how about we figure out what was RIGHT on that one, instead of the ones that tried to set them up "like they always did". This family of engines has been around since 2004, and now that the Sportmaster case exists, collectively we should be able to help EngineerMike out and the whole board shares the knowledge at his expense. There's over 75,000 Verados in the world, sooner or later they're going to be a potential power supply for our 20'+ projects. Whaddya say?

    I'm going to guess on the 20 LCB the CG wasn't made to match what the 300X was, and there's not much boat length to recover it. Grant has already proven that the 400ROS to 400R conversion had no difference on Matt Rice's 368 Skater, but nobody seems to want to talk about that. It's a matter of time before this community figures out what a single cat with a centerpod likes. Wildman, you yourself had positive gains on the 21 Liberator over a 300XS, do you see anything obvious that EngineerMike should be paying attention to? What did you find the 400R wanted different for props compared to 300XS?

    The single 400R is lighter than a pair of 2.5's so the "it's too heavy" statement doesn't hold water, either. Maybe these things just like 500+ HP to be happy? Eli's seemed to run pretty well with his different combinations on it.

    My guess is props, CG, setback and engine height will need to be varied a bunch to come up with the correct combination. Unfortunately, I've modified my center pod by notching more than 5' of it out of my boat, and just got it back from interior as the water froze here, so I can't share setup stuff until spring. I can tell you that once on the water, I definitely will. I didn't like the -3* angle the centerpod had, as I believe it acts like dragging a tab, so I was convinced to remove it.

    Let's see if we can't give some support for a positive experience instead of telling the guy his $30K experiment "will never work". One of my guys at work has a saying that I've adopted: "Can't means you don't want to..."
    A problem is only a problem when viewed as a problem...

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  3. #77
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    I think the entire problem with the LCB and the 400 is the size of the gearcase with no centerpod to get it out of the water flow.
    " IT'S NOT HOW FAST YOU ARE, IT'S HOW COOL YOU LOOK!!! "

    Check out my new website. (IN PROGRESS) liberatorpowerboats.com



    Things owned. NOTHING!!
    Ain't got no toyz, Ain't got no money! I is jus a poor Florida boy!

    Visit My Liberator and Checkmate Boats Website

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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by WILDMAN View Post
    I think the entire problem with the LCB and the 400 is the size of the gearcase with no centerpod to get it out of the water flow.
    That very well may be. If so, I'm in trouble! Guess we'll find out when the ice is out in April...

    Did you put less setback on your 400R install on the 21 Liberator, or did you keep it the same as 300XS? The Verado has either 4.5" or 5" setback built in, I can never remember which.
    A problem is only a problem when viewed as a problem...

  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by HydroSkreamin View Post
    Hey, guys, how about we try to help this SNF brother who is pioneering uncharted territory and could use some help. I can't think of two more knowledgeable guys that could have useful input on this.

    The fact that one Fat Cat actually was faster with a 400R says 6 other setups were wrong, so how about we figure out what was RIGHT on that one, instead of the ones that tried to set them up "like they always did". This family of engines has been around since 2004, and now that the Sportmaster case exists, collectively we should be able to help EngineerMike out and the whole board shares the knowledge at his expense. There's over 75,000 Verados in the world, sooner or later they're going to be a potential power supply for our 20'+ projects. Whaddya say?

    I'm going to guess on the 20 LCB the CG wasn't made to match what the 300X was, and there's not much boat length to recover it. Grant has already proven that the 400ROS to 400R conversion had no difference on Matt Rice's 368 Skater, but nobody seems to want to talk about that. It's a matter of time before this community figures out what a single cat with a centerpod likes. Wildman, you yourself had positive gains on the 21 Liberator over a 300XS, do you see anything obvious that EngineerMike should be paying attention to? What did you find the 400R wanted different for props compared to 300XS?

    The single 400R is lighter than a pair of 2.5's so the "it's too heavy" statement doesn't hold water, either. Maybe these things just like 500+ HP to be happy? Eli's seemed to run pretty well with his different combinations on it.

    My guess is props, CG, setback and engine height will need to be varied a bunch to come up with the correct combination. Unfortunately, I've modified my center pod by notching more than 5' of it out of my boat, and just got it back from interior as the water froze here, so I can't share setup stuff until spring. I can tell you that once on the water, I definitely will. I didn't like the -3* angle the centerpod had, as I believe it acts like dragging a tab, so I was convinced to remove it.

    Let's see if we can't give some support for a positive experience instead of telling the guy his $30K experiment "will never work". One of my guys at work has a saying that I've adopted: "Can't means you don't want to..."
    I already gave my advise and what little knowledge I have on the subject in post #61, #66 and #72. As far as the fat cat testing, they did everything on set up changes to try and utilize the 400R "its not an easy swap over so they spent a lot of time". I agree 100% with Randy that the big case is a big deal and the motors just don't make as much steam as everyone thinks. I can tell you that on the big Doug Wright, they are great as long you keep them wound up which is easy to do with that hull because you don't need to get out of the throttle for very long.

    Joe

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  7. #80
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    Joe, I'm guessing your advice of the large diameter 5 blade is to allow the case to be raised higher and still have blade in the water?

    Do you have any insight as to the single Fat Cat that did show a speed gain?

    I understand the concern with the 400R case in a true cat with no protection mounted in the center, but this particular boat has a center pod. I'm guessing the big case acts like a wheelie bar/slalom ski?

    Is it then safe to assume he probably doesn't want a prop with any barrel or it needs one with a very short tube?

    Thanks much for your input, sir.
    A problem is only a problem when viewed as a problem...

  8. #81
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    I'm slow but I eventually come around...someone on the board has me thinking about things in a different way. I lost 550 lb off the rear of the boat, which pushed the center of gravity forward. I lost half of my blade area, so I have less prop in the water to lift the bow with. Add that to the natural tendency of this hull to plow the bow due to the raked pod, and you wind up not being able to carry the bow. I borrowed a blaster and did a brief run and found it gained about 20% better fuel mileage plus I can trim it up and gain speed at steady throttle. I didn't go over 60 though. With the bravo1, trimming it made no difference in running attitude or speed, just more slip.

  9. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by HydroSkreamin View Post
    Joe, I'm guessing your advice of the large diameter 5 blade is to allow the case to be raised higher and still have blade in the water?

    Do you have any insight as to the single Fat Cat that did show a speed gain?

    I understand the concern with the 400R case in a true cat with no protection mounted in the center, but this particular boat has a center pod. I'm guessing the big case acts like a wheelie bar/slalom ski?

    Is it then safe to assume he probably doesn't want a prop with any barrel or it needs one with a very short tube?

    Thanks much for your input, sir.
    It was faster on a 22 cat that has a center pod (4 mph) on top. They ended up with Porta bracket that had 10 inches of set back, a merc cnc cleaver 5 blade (over hub), and the boat is heavy. On Randys boat (a light weight 21 with a center pod), he says the acceleration is great and he picked up 6 mph with the motor running high.

    Its not a situation of the big case acting line a wheelie bar and pushing the bow down, Its a case of the motor not having enough bottom end to spin (a big prop) that will give you top end and get it up on surface. Once its on plane then you need to jack it up so that the case is surfaced and let the hull and packed air do their job. If the boat has "a raked pod" or negative wedge, then I would look at straightening out and if needed, add some additional strakes to the front running surface for a better transitional speed attitude-(the inside ones pictured were added).Click image for larger version. 

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    I say that he needs the 5 blade with a big dia. to both carry the weight and stay hooked up so that he can raise the case and run it with some positive trim if nessesary. I think you are correct on the barrel.-its where I would start.

    Joe
    Last edited by JPEROG; 12-26-2017 at 08:32 PM.

  10. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    I'm slow but I eventually come around...someone on the board has me thinking about things in a different way. I lost 550 lb off the rear of the boat, which pushed the center of gravity forward. I lost half of my blade area, so I have less prop in the water to lift the bow with. Add that to the natural tendency of this hull to plow the bow due to the raked pod, and you wind up not being able to carry the bow. I borrowed a blaster and did a brief run and found it gained about 20% better fuel mileage plus I can trim it up and gain speed at steady throttle. I didn't go over 60 though. With the bravo1, trimming it made no difference in running attitude or speed, just more slip.
    was thinking about losing the weight on the rear of the boat weight between the 400 r and twin 260's will make for a plow for sure you might want to stack barbells somewhat the difference in lbs in rear and go for a ride

  11. #84
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    Good news today....I borrowed a 27" bblades blaster and hit 88 mph gps, on the rev limiter. The blaster was able to hold the bow up, and trimming up seemed to fix the hop. I was running the trim just above neutral. I did notice that trimming up gained speed but put it on the rev limiter. Trim down slightly and it grabbed better and dropped the rpm, but lost a few mph. This is with the prop shaft centerline even with the pad (with the sponsons level, not the pod).

    Seeing as how the hull is something like 600 lb heavier than the 22 talons and 21 liberators, I'm not expecting 115 mph. In fact, it's matched the highest speed I ever achieved with the twin 300's, so call me satisfied. I'm certain there's more in it considering the limited prop selection I've tried, the limited setup time, and how much gearcase is in the water.

    The next step for me is to get a more permanent prop. This one is borrowed and I don't want to break it. Promax and max5 are at the top of my list at the moment.

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  13. #85
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    That's good news. I know on my boat the BBlades and ProMax ran about the same speed but the ProMax was happier level, the BBlades wanted more trim. Neither were really "carrying the bow" in the sense that at 90mph the boat was flying at virtually the same attitude. The ProMax does accelerate faster and seems smoother at all speeds, I really like mine (14.5 x 30 Lab finished). I think it's one of the best all around props for air entrapment hulls and it's relatively inexpensive.
    Mark

  14. #86
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    Sweet, keep steeping up the pitch and see where it ends. I am glad that its coming around for you. I have a 30 and a 32 pro et that you are welcome to try if you want. Shipping shouldn't be bad for our distance.

    Joe

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  16. #87
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    I haven't read much of this post, but I set up my 22' Daytona as follows. It has pretty much a full length center pod.
    Twin 300xs, 58" apart, mounted on 10" set backs, prop shafts 1" 1/2" above the lowest point, props are ventilated Bravo I's 4 blade, 15 1/4" x 34" turning out. I don't believe they are true 34", I run Lenco electric trim tabs 12" x 18" over the tunnels. I also have Mike Nass Alien Cowls that have carbon fiber plenum that feed the velocity stacks. This essentially behaves like ram air. I picked up a few hundred RPM with these cowls and no other changes.

    I set the prop shafts level with the bottom of the boat an never touch them. I do vary the trim tabs. I can change the attitude of the boat at high speeds by just adjusting the tabs, even though they are not touching the water. Air pressure can make some big changes.

    I have seen above 115 mph, but I need better props to get anymore. I would like to try some five blade 35"'s.

    I also wish I used 12" or 14" set backs, but I can make those adjustments pretty easily.


    Here are a few pictures and a quick 110 mph run along the Columbia river.

    Wildman, Randy, is the man, I would listen to anything he has to say, also Bullhead Bully, Vegas Dave or Joe have all given me good suggestions.

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    Last edited by jpf091959; 01-14-2018 at 11:57 AM.

  17. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    Good news today....I borrowed a 27" bblades blaster and hit 88 mph gps, on the rev limiter. The blaster was able to hold the bow up, and trimming up seemed to fix the hop. I was running the trim just above neutral. I did notice that trimming up gained speed but put it on the rev limiter. Trim down slightly and it grabbed better and dropped the rpm, but lost a few mph. This is with the prop shaft centerline even with the pad (with the sponsons level, not the pod).

    Seeing as how the hull is something like 600 lb heavier than the 22 talons and 21 liberators, I'm not expecting 115 mph. In fact, it's matched the highest speed I ever achieved with the twin 300's, so call me satisfied. I'm certain there's more in it considering the limited prop selection I've tried, the limited setup time, and how much gearcase is in the water.

    The next step for me is to get a more permanent prop. This one is borrowed and I don't want to break it. Promax and max5 are at the top of my list at the moment.
    EngineerMike, this is great news! At least it's directionally correct, slip is down under 15%. Looking forward to hearing what different props achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPEROG View Post
    Sweet, keep steeping up the pitch and see where it ends. I am glad that its coming around for you. I have a 30 and a 32 pro et that you are welcome to try if you want. Shipping shouldn't be bad for our distance.

    Joe
    Joe, that is extremely cool and generous of you to offer these up. Thanks for your input, and your previous post of adding strakes. Makes sense.

    Here is a pic I stored away of what these bottoms look like. Low deadrise, no strakes, negative angle on center pod.
    (Photo credit: build thread on riverdavesplace.com)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    A problem is only a problem when viewed as a problem...

  18. #89
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    That looks just like the bottom on a 21ft Eliminator/Liberator.

  19. #90
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    Mike, if you want to try some props, I have a 25 Hydromotive Q4X thats 15" diameter, 28 Pro max, 28 & 32 Pro Ets and a 28 Trophy Plus(only 14" dia though). Shoot me a text if you want to try one.

    Boat looks good with the 400 on it!

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