New Jet Hull for speeds of 170 mph Plus?

[E-tec1]

I dont think hes sayin that boat will go that.........just theoretical hypos of what could be done..........know john a long time.............hes an inovator and lucky hes here to argue with...........been jet boatin a long time.........give him time to fit in..........that boat was out for the first run a new athens............give a little credit........then give him crap...........he can take it..............was nice seein you up and about after all you were thru............BRETT

[bp298]

Donnie littles boat is a stealth,it runs a bit over 130mph in a thousand ft,on all motor and nitrous,he one smokin in the cove few years back in the 6 sec class,it is real quick for a non supercharged jet..

donnie little did very well with that boat at the cove. heard he sold it?

I dont think hes sayin that boat will go that.........just theoretical hypos of what could be done..........know john a long time.............hes an inovator and lucky hes here to argue with...........been jet boatin a long time.........give him time to fit in..........that boat was out for the first run a new athens............give a little credit........then give him crap...........he can take it..............was nice seein you up and about after all you were thru............BRETT

mr. e-tec, i have no beef with john or george, nor do i care what they may "theoretically" think they can do with that hull. until they do something, it's all just talk.
but i've owned/raced a southwind tunnel dragster for 16 years, and i DO take exception to what he "theoretically" states about southwinds requiring "huge hp" to "go fast", whatever that may mean. during those 16 years i've done my due diligence on the origin and design of these boats, as well as how to make them run well. i've run 113/9.40s years ago, with close to 800hp absorbed. that may not be "fast", but it was smooth and straight, and when i've lost power at 100+, the boat neither rolled, hooked or spit. it just lands and drifts off.

things have changed over the last 25 years. there are at least 8 deep tunnels i could name, running at bakersfield in the mid to low 7s between 135 and 140. they do that routinely, good attitude without getting close to blowover, hook or roll. i've seen 2 of 'em lose power in the lights, sit down and go straight. it is ALL about setup and balance. things have been refined over the years; still, anyone can set one up improperly and do stupid things, just like someone can do with an outboard.

southwind tunnels were the first jet tunnels commercially available, in 1975. eliminator daytona's came shortly after that. then bill place, after campaining an swtd, was given a sw mold and created the first generation placecraft out of it, in the late '70s. the rogers dragstar was around before all of that. if that design was "all that", don't you think someone would have made it work before now??? there are reasons why it has not "taken over" as a 10, 9, or 8 second boat.

dan kirkman's stealth routinely runs 6.80s/160+ with 2300hp, not 3000. it repeats those numbers like a bracket boat, and i've watched him a couple times lose a belt in the lights killing the engine, it just slides straight to a stop. it is ALL about setup. john d's vortec charged cheyenne runs 7.20s/140 like a bracket boat. he pulled the kill switch in the lights at firebird, and the boat went straight then drifted off to the right. it is ALL about setup.

i realize this is an ob forum. i'm here because i have several friends that race outboards. if john posted the same thing over on pb's jet forum, i can assure you the reaction would be quite different, as there are a lot of people there that know jets.

[Jet Boat Guy]

Dear bp298, I was not knocking the Southwind Tunnel. It was one of the best Jet boats ever built and perhaps the very best.. Southwinds, Placecrafts and Rogers Dragstars all have realitively shallow tunnels requiring them to need a lot of power to develop high speeds. This is why none of them have been successful in Pro Gas Jet. This is the exact reason they work so well in Blown Fuel Jet. It is relatively easy to go fast in a deep tunnel boat like a Edge. However, you will always be on the "Edge" at speeds above 123 mph. Deep tunnel boats simply have so much speed and trap so much air that they simply want to fly. They were never designed to go 150 MPH like the Dragstar was! I assure you, that if you drive a deep tunnel design at speeds exceeding that it will simply be a matter of time until a gust of wind blows it over or it sticks a sponson during a crosswind on landing and hooks or barrel rolls. I have had 3 very close friends die in deep tunnel jet boats and one who is paralyzed possibly forever! This is the exact reason we choose the Rogers Dragstar for our Fuel Jet platform. It has the shallowest tunnels and the smallest sponsons. It is as safe as any high speed boat can be to our knowledge. It is all about safety and the desire to see Jets go fast without people getting hurt. The jet boat classes are all but gone just because of this problem that occurs when trying to run 160 mph in a deep tunnel design. I love Jet boats, just as others love outboards and simply would like these classes to continue with as much safety and common sense as possible. Yes, the Rogers Dragstar is a challenge but that is what I enjoy. I do not sell these boats and have financial gains to be expected. I simply love Jet boats. I hope you can understand our thoughts on this subject.

[bp298]

john, i've also had close friends, friends and acquaintences die as the result of crashes. deep tunnels, shallow tunnels and hydros. that was all very sad.
that said, it had more to do with setup and setup philosophy than it did design. 20-25 years ago, the common belief was that all these boats needed to run down a track with 5-7 degrees of attitude. as time has passed, especially over the past 3-5 years, it's been proven on numerous boats that this much attitude is not necessary to run fast, in fact it's a detriment. if you watched kirkman run over the last 4 years, or any of the 130-140mph jets at ming. none of these boats are "on the edge", or even close to it, like many of the progas or comp jets would be 10-20 years ago. they are running nearly flat, with a more contemporary approach to setup that is actually quicker and faster than the previous approach. for example, john d's cheyenne that runs 7.20s/139-140 is glued to the water, front to back. these hulls DO NOT have to run ridiculously loose with a lot of attitude to be quick and fast. there are two new placecrafts that were out at the last race for the first time, both running contemporary hardware and running relatively flat. one ran low 9s, while the other ran 8.30s. both are still sorting out setup and can run quicker/faster. there are still others that believe running these boats very loose with substantial attitude is the way to go - that's their choice, but the other approach has been proven to be more effective on a repeated basis at ming. the quickest open jetboats in the country run in b'field, and quick wins races.

one fact that is often overlooked is that the vast majority of southwind tunnels were heavy boats, weighing anywhere from 600-700lbs. mine bare weighs 730. the older gen 1 and 2 pc's were also heavy; many of the more recent layups of gen 3s have been in the 415-430 range. not "light" , but not obese either, and weight makes a huge difference. a LOT of the daytona's laid up 20-30 years ago were light if they weighed 450-475. while there were a few in the mid 300s and a couple less than that, the vast majority were over 500lbs.

in today's world, with the higher end materials that have been used, along with more refined layup schedules, most all the boats being laid up are in the 390-420 range. and that makes a huge huge difference. rigging and setting up boats at this weight, to run in the preferred manner, results in a ride that is nowhere close to "the edge" frequently seen 20 or more years ago.

if you all really believe you can run this well with a flatbottom jet, good luck with that.

[Jet Boat Guy]

bp298 Thank you for the polite reply. You are very correct on your reply. Maybe someone should build a light weight Southwind!

[sleekcrafter]

The new capsuled boat is being built right now. It will have a 3000 hp Brad Anderson blown, injected, 526, all aluminum hemi. Not 480 hp like the one that went 80mph! The heavy prototype boat ran 151MPH. I guess we will see next spring at Firebird if it will go 170! I do not think it will the first time out.

Whats the update on this new build? I see it being advertized locally as a winner, will it debut at the NJBA opener? Firebird just had their season opener last weekend.

[mirage243]

Whats the update on this new build? I see it being advertized locally as a winner, will it debut at the NJBA opener? Firebird just had their season opener last weekend.

Yea, inquiring minds want to know.

[Jet Boat Guy]

We are working to try to get the boat ready for Firebird by the late May race. It is made from Advantage Boats mold which we purchased and it is the original Rogers Dragstar mold. We have built mold inserts to reduce lift by reducing the width of the keel. The race ADBA just had there had no equipiment for capsuled boats. For updates on the project you can Google topfueljet to get to our website. We will be running against the flats on 1000 ft. courses. There are photos of the new boat and the capsule shell. I am going to Chicago to pick up the hull in two weeks, at that point we can start rigging. Thank you for the interest.

[sleekcrafter]

Looks like it has a ways to go, 2 months is gonna be tight! Best of luck for the 2011 season.

[bp298]

We are working to try to get the boat ready for Firebird by the late May race. It is made from Advantage Boats mold which we purchased and it is the original Rogers Dragstar mold. We have built mold inserts to reduce lift by reducing the width of the keel. The race ADBA just had there had no equipiment for capsuled boats. For updates on the project you can Google topfueljet to get to our website. We will be running against the flats on 1000 ft. courses. There are photos of the new boat and the capsule shell. I am going to Chicago to pick up the hull in two weeks, at that point we can start rigging. Thank you for the interest.

just a comment. we (adba) do have more than adequate equipment and rescue to run capsules. there are other reasons we have elected not to run capsules now, or for the forseeable future. whenever we decide to run them, we'll let people know.

[bp298]

since this thing completely came apart around the capsule and is now destroyed, what's next??

[mirage243]

I saw the wreck firsthand, thank goodness he could only run 145 or so, that mysterious 170 would have been bad.

[bp298]

hey bill, hows things? I saw you were running pe this weekend? how did you do? I've known brad for a long time. good guy. and it really really sucks that he got hurt driving something that was only 3 years old, that just disintegrated around him.

[mirage243]

Bob, we had us a little 8.20 boat this weekend, first time out with it, we'll have it fixed this week though. Boat ran straight and clean, no issues there and that's the most important thing with a new boat, as you well know.

It's a shame about the jet, it was squirreling around right out of the gate, then it was darting at the finish line, don't know what happened after that, too much water spray from my point of view.

[afr]

dam is this the boat