455 Olds Berkley Jet Question

[gatahiti]

Are those two fittings in the front of the pan part of the four corner return oil system? Where does the other end plumb? To the heads or to the valve covers?

I will acquire that back issue, it sounds really worthwhile from what i have read on the other forum!

I went and got the boat yesterday, it pulls like a dream on the trailer and road home in seventies style...aluminum slot ansen sprint mags :-D It isnt so bad, the string in the keel needs replacing, I will most likely replce the board that sits perpendicular to the stringers in front of the engine. When it was originally installed, the drain hole for the bilge was located about an inch above the keel, so apparently water could get stuck in there so its a little soft. I figure it would be best to go ahead and address this while completing the floor repair. I think i will also place a small hatch at this area to clean out any debris that might somehow find its way into this portion of the bilge. Does anyone run a under floor fuel tank in these boats? I was thinking of a 40 gallon tank but sticking it up under the front deck like factory seems like maybe thats a good bit of weight out front. Any pros or cons? I am starting with no place diverter or jet-o-vator so i have no way of retrimming to compensate for the fuel weight... I am in the market for either of those units (isnt every jet boater just starting out?)

Lots of good things about it though. The trailer had new hubs and bearings a couple of years back with the bearing protectors in place. They ran cool and quiet all 98 miles home. The pump spins smooth and free, the previous owner said it had only a few hours run time on it since a rebuild. Rebuilder's sticker is on the side and is in great condition. He told me it had a bronze impeller in it. At the time i was busy putting new lights on the trailer and it didnt really dawn on me what he said until later. Today I pulled the handhole and looked in at the impeller... its got a slight green tarnish to it and looks a dull bronze color. I wouldnt think this is a bad thing...? All of the blades have a nice sharp leading edge with no nicks that i could feel. Everything in the steering bushings and reverse diverter is tight, reverse cable is free, steering cable is not. All of the engine parts are Harmann Marine. I hadnt heard of them before. The manifolds and risers are in very good condition from what i can tell (will pressure test sometime in the near future) and all the pieces seem to be there. The PTO doesnt use an adapter plate like i was expecting, instead the yoke is drilled to match the olds crankshaft. four bolts go through yoke, flexplate into crank two just go through the flexplate.

I have been too busy to tear down the one 455 i already have, and the other one hasnt made its way to me yet. We shall see what is usable in each. I forsee a punching and new pistons.

And...I washed my engineless, floorless, seatless, windshieldless boat. I wanted to see how bad the gelcoat/paint below the aluminum trim would look clean. So I washed all fo it and waxed part of it. I think it will be presentable from the trim down. No cracks or gouges, lots of little scratches here and there nothing that appears dangerous. Nothing that looks horrible. I figure I will probably put a few more in it before i master driving it, especially in close quarters.

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Are those two fittings in the front of the pan part of the four corner return oil system? Where does the other end plumb? To the heads or to the valve covers?

I will acquire that back issue, it sounds really worthwhile from what i have read on the other forum!

I went and got the boat yesterday, it pulls like a dream on the trailer and road home in seventies style...aluminum slot ansen sprint mags :-D It isnt so bad, the string in the keel needs replacing, I will most likely replce the board that sits perpendicular to the stringers in front of the engine. When it was originally installed, the drain hole for the bilge was located about an inch above the keel, so apparently water could get stuck in there so its a little soft. I figure it would be best to go ahead and address this while completing the floor repair. I think i will also place a small hatch at this area to clean out any debris that might somehow find its way into this portion of the bilge. Does anyone run a under floor fuel tank in these boats? I was thinking of a 40 gallon tank but sticking it up under the front deck like factory seems like maybe thats a good bit of weight out front. Any pros or cons? I am starting with no place diverter or jet-o-vator so i have no way of retrimming to compensate for the fuel weight... I am in the market for either of those units (isnt every jet boater just starting out?)

Lots of good things about it though. The trailer had new hubs and bearings a couple of years back with the bearing protectors in place. They ran cool and quiet all 98 miles home. The pump spins smooth and free, the previous owner said it had only a few hours run time on it since a rebuild. Rebuilder's sticker is on the side and is in great condition. He told me it had a bronze impeller in it. At the time i was busy putting new lights on the trailer and it didnt really dawn on me what he said until later. Today I pulled the handhole and looked in at the impeller... its got a slight green tarnish to it and looks a dull bronze color. I wouldnt think this is a bad thing...? All of the blades have a nice sharp leading edge with no nicks that i could feel. Everything in the steering bushings and reverse diverter is tight, reverse cable is free, steering cable is not. All of the engine parts are Harmann Marine. I hadnt heard of them before. The manifolds and risers are in very good condition from what i can tell (will pressure test sometime in the near future) and all the pieces seem to be there. The PTO doesnt use an adapter plate like i was expecting, instead the yoke is drilled to match the olds crankshaft. four bolts go through yoke, flexplate into crank two just go through the flexplate.

I have been too busy to tear down the one 455 i already have, and the other one hasnt made its way to me yet. We shall see what is usable in each. I forsee a punching and new pistons.

And...I washed my engineless, floorless, seatless, windshieldless boat. I wanted to see how bad the gelcoat/paint below the aluminum trim would look clean. So I washed all fo it and waxed part of it. I think it will be presentable from the trim down. No cracks or gouges, lots of little scratches here and there nothing that appears dangerous. Nothing that looks horrible. I figure I will probably put a few more in it before i master driving it, especially in close quarters.

Eli

The heads have drains at the rear only. 3/8" NPT...



Most folks just drain the rear because that's where most of the oil is gonna be. Seems to be adequate.

I have had several jet boats that had the one, and only, fuel tank under the front deck. I have heard of gas tanks under the floor. Because gas fumes are heavy you could have a deadly fuel leak and not know until it went boom. I wouldn't want fuel under my floor for that reason. First choice would be saddle tanks (one each side...mine hold more than 40 gallons combined), then a single tank under the front deck if saddle tanks were not possible.

Considering that you have a bare hull, this would be a great time to check the bottom to make sure there is no "hook" in it. If you need to fix a hook problem, now is MUCH easier than later. If it has any hook, you will want to correct it......now or later.

Harmin Marine is not uncommon. Their stuff is as good as most. The greatest obstacle to performance is the exhaust system. No need spending big bucks on the intake side unless you switch to headers first. The Edelbrock "Performer" intake seems to work best with the exhaust system you describe.

It sounds like the jet pump is in good shape. Avoid running it out of the water, and it will likely stay that way for a long time.

[gatahiti]

You answered my next question already! I was about to ask about running it on the trailer. I will most likely put my engine in with no H-bar to fire it up and run it and break the cam in. It looks like a good way to check out my cooling system and all too. I have access to a 2 inch water hose with around 120 pounds of pressure on it so I can test my relief valve system out and basically have no issues on my first outing (I hope..!)

It will probably be awhile before i can afford to go away from my current exhaust system But I can still have fun! I probably dont need a hot hot motor anyway. I need to learn to drive this thing. Thank you for all of your help

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Just remember that without power, it's difficult to impossible to steer a jet boat.

[gatahiti]

what exactly is hook in the hull? And how do i correct it?

i know someone with one of those seadoo jet boats...maybe driving that could be of benefit...

where do saddle tanks sit at in the hull?

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

what exactly is hook in the hull? And how do i correct it?

i know someone with one of those seadoo jet boats...maybe driving that could be of benefit...

where do saddle tanks sit at in the hull?

Eli

There are 3 basic shapes (front to back) possible for a boat bottom. Rocker, hook, and flat. If you look at the side profile of a boat hull, you see that the front bottom curves up to the deck, the rear bottom is sort of chopped off, and the bottom of the part in the middle is pretty much flat. This middle part is where there can be a problem. If you a 48" straight edge held against the bottom from the transom forward and look where it touches, you can have:

1. Touches all along the 48" length = flat
2. Touches somewhere in the center and not on both ends = rocker
3. Touches on both ends w/gap under center = hook.

Rocker, if excessive, will cause porpoise.
Hook will act like big suction cup and hold the front of the boat down, limiting speed.
Flat (or straight) works fine.

If a boat is stored on a trailer that does not support it properly, it will often develop a "hook".

The hook can be corrected by filling the low areas.

Saddle tanks fit along the sides of the boat. They come in a variety of shapes. They usually start a foot or so ahead of the transom and are about 3-4 ft long. It's a matter of what will fit in the space available. There is a fill cap on each side of the boat.

[OldSleekOlds]

Good info on removing hook here

http://www.banderlog.com/phpBB2/view...ht=jeff+bennet

[Propster]

Wish I had this diagram when I had my first jetboat that had log manifolds ('74 18 Sidewinder 455/Berkley)!

[QUOTE=OldSleekOlds;1109697]Here is the standard cooling water set-up for a jet boat with the manifold/riser system you have.



QUOTE]

[gatahiti]

I really dont think my hull came with a Berkley originally. Is the cutout for a jacuzzi pump (in the transom) smaller than a berkley? The reason I ask is the cutout for the pump is not as cleanly done as the finish of the rest of the hull. It actually looks rather crude in a couple of spots, like the berkley pump was retrofitted. Since I plan on a reseal of the drive I will probably remedy how it looks from the inside. After June 2nd work can begin in earnest.

Thanks for the link on the hook, it makes sense now. It may be winter before I address this. I plan on trying to get in the water this season. How can I be sure my trailer is properly supporting the hull? Since my boat will be stored on its trailer with engine in place do I need to do anything special? Maybe a support to be put in place during storage to prevent the hull from being warped? Should support be applied directly to the transom? My current trailer's supports catch the boat under the next outermost chine (if i recall correctly) and come back to about a foot and a half in front of the transom. I do not like how this is currently as it seems the boat is supported in a somewhat weak area halfway between stringers. You can see the hull slightly flex if you climb over in it. I worry about the weight of the engine and hitting potholes. Does anyone have a reccomended drawing of where the trailer and hull should contact each other?

Eli

[sleekcrafter]

Back in the day when they cranked them out, rigging quality was not job one in many shops, just the curb appeal was all that mattered. The holes were cut with what ever was handy at the time, such as jigsaw, skill saw or even a cut off wheel. Jaccuzzi pump openings were much wider than the Berkeley, It may have been equiped with a Panther jet, at one time.

[gatahiti]

yeesh... I dont think I can deal with how raggedy it looks! Shouldnt be horrific to remedy though.

Eli

[OldSleekOlds]

Here's what a Berkley (top) and Jacuzzi cutout CAN look like. Could also depend on what day and who did it.



If you provide support under the stringers that support the engine, that would be a good place to start. If the stringers are short stubs, run the support forward at least as far as straight support will contact the hull. Additional support each side of the main support will help when you haul it on the trailer.

I was able to remove a slight hook in the bottom of an Avenger I had by supporting it at 3 points for the 6 month winter layup. I cut two 4X4's the correct length to stand on end under each rear corner of the boat at the transom. Then I jacked up the front of the trailer until the boat was supported only by the 4X4's and the very front of the keel. The weight of the motor was enough to correct the crooked bottom. It was a pleasant surprise in the Spring when I checked to see just how bad the hook was and found it completely gone.

The Avenger had short stubby stringers and a really lousy trailer. Sometimes you can get lucky.

[gatahiti]

I posted over int he fiberglass forum some questions about my stringer replacement. I dont think anyone wants to touch this :-P

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forum...d.php?t=133193

btw i like that hull!!

[sleekcrafter]

I replaced one stringer in my Southwind tunnel, and did bottom repair behind the pump. All work done with West systems at the time, MAS is more readily available to me now a days.




Rough shaping and ready for finish coat.

[gatahiti]

So if i do a decent job of prep and follow the directions i shouldnt have an issue with things sticking together? It is a 150+ miles drive to the nearest West dealer (per their website). I am unsure about the MAS stuff as their website is too high bandwidth for my home connection. I am guessing its probably about the same. So I am stuck with mail order

I pulled the Jet out tonight, I only have the intake in the hull now. I caught a devil of a time getting the plate off of the back of the hull. Yellow plastic embem adhesive, the gasket and a couple of tubes of caulk make for a very hard time. Plus the big O ring around the bowl was so hard that it wouldnt let the plate come off. I had to resort to bumping it with a board from inside. I have a very good idea the reason for all of the sealant stems from the way the transom is made. It only has a plywood core for the bottom four or five inches, further up is simply fiberglass about 3/16th of an inch thick. It was impossible to tell with all of the glue but I think maybe the transom wasnt stiff enough to compress the gasket around the entire perimeter of the plate, so it leaked. I plan on remedying this by laminating in plywood all the way around the jet opening. I have a couple more pictures that I snapped tonight. These show the plywood core in the transom as well as the broken free stringer.

As much as I hate it to say it, I may swap to chrysler power. Finding a usable complete Olds core has proven much more difficult than anticipated. The one 455 I have will need to be punched to 60 thousandths due to getting water in the cylinders. I have become less picky and started telling people i will accept 425s and 403s I already have a couple of B series Chryslers, nice intakes, but no marine parts. endless cycle. They are my favorite big block engine besides the 472-500 caddy. The only affordable exhaust option i have seen however is a log type manifold which looks tiny for the B series (especially when building those 451inch B with RB internals strokers). I dont want to go to over the transom headers because there is already a huge hoopla about noise on the lake now.

I went and saw a guy who had a 455, complete. It was laying upside down on the ground behind his shop and was a 68-69 year engine. This means no hardened valve seats if the heads have never been off. Inspection showed ALOT of grease and grime for this "low mileage" engine. Ring gear on flex plate had rather worn teeth so either it was from another much much higher mileage engine or this was the little old lady car who started it everyday to go to the grocery store 1 mile away. His asking price was $850, I couldnt stomach that because i could look at it and tell it wasnt a low miles engine, he couldnt give me a good reason why it was pulled ("uhh uhh just put another in the car" What are you gonna convert to in a 68-69 delta 88...a 260? ) and he kept saying the heads were really desireable. They were not Cs, I specifically looked for the C and they were not Gs (hardened seats) or any of the other good ones (per the 442 site). So basically I felt like he was trying to pawn off a worn out 455 with probably a blown rod bearing for a premium price just because he thought the heads were something special. $850 will buy forged pistons and pay for the bore job on my block with money leftover to go toward the rest of the build. I know I have a good crank and rods as this was a rebuilt engine which apparently used oil after the rebuild for some reason. I am thinking most likely a result of an attempt to further knurl valve guides to compensate for wear or something. Who knows?

Sorry I kinda got off the fiberglass subject and back onto engines. I will price both systems thorugh mail order see which is economical. From what i have read the MAS system seems to be nice and easy to work with. That would be a big plus. I am used to throwing resin and hardener together in the right proportions and going at it. Epoxy seems like it requires a little more patience but the rewards are worth it. Will Epoxy not stick to pressure treated lumber like polyester wont? (according to what i have read ont he forum...) It is kind of a moot point as I intend to encapsulate everything so it doesnt have to be treated. I will go in search of fur as suggested tomorrow if i can find it. I do not know if it will be available locally. Most likely it will.

I will try to post new pics tomorrow. And on monday I will order one of those starter epoxy kits and lay up some flat panels to learn to use the stuff. Do you think i should move this into a new thread?

Thanks for all of your help,
Eli