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2us70
12-23-2005, 06:25 PM
Can any of you historians tell me if Mercury ever was able to compete in SE after 1973? I know Mercs won Nationals in 70 and 73 but after that I don't recall any Mercury boats that could keep up with the OMC 3cyl 49in motors. I was running SD and G Production after 73 and the OMCs pretty much had SE to themselvs.

MagicFloat
12-23-2005, 07:51 PM
Jim,don't remember much about SE but I have the McCall brochure from about 1973,photo of a beautiful SE boat with a 72 or 73 650 Merc with an equally beautiful bikini clad lady(John's trademark :) ) We were running FG then and when the the 650 Merc came out as an E motor Bill Combs wanted to build us a superlight 13' Checkmate to test the waters in FE against the OMC's.The boat was so thin and so light that we had to add lead to make weight. But we still could not run with the OMC's,they had us on power.At the Eufala,AL Marathon nationals in maybe 73 or 74 (memory is bad here) I came off a wave,nosed in and hit bottom( very shallow water),and I guess that ended my racing days,never had the guts to push it after that.I still look at the old Merc SE records in awe. Kilo 74.070,5 mile competition,60.261,and your 1 hour SD record in Key West,1974, 50.8. Pretty amazing for those little motors.

2us70
12-23-2005, 09:20 PM
Now you got me trying to remember the name of the guy who set that E Production 1 hour record in 74. I also set a 1 hour record that day in SD with a 50 merc (50.382). I recall him passing me in Boca Chica channel on the last lap of the race and giving me a big thumbs up. Attached pic taken early in race with full fuel.

Fast Fred
12-24-2005, 07:58 AM
NO, thay could not compete, them diafram reed , no head gasket piles got put in thare place every time and still have no chance even with a no head gasket
diafram reed pile with 10 more cubes than the OMC, you would think thay would learn after havin thare a$$ handed to them every time.

so this is what we have

diafram reeds + no head gasket= fishin only at best :eek:

Mark75H
12-24-2005, 09:37 AM
with 10 more cubes than the OMC,

Please explain, I'm not clear on what you are talking about .... Merc's E and OMC's E where both 49ci

Raceman
12-24-2005, 09:45 AM
Unfortunately the crossflow/direct charge design of the inline Mercs is so inferior to the looper design of the OMC's that the Mercs got blown away in every class where there was a 3 cyl OMC. Whether it was FE SE or Mod 50, I always went and got a bite to eat when they put em in the water. Bein' a Merc fan it was just too gruesome to watch. Thank God OMC never built a looper for the J classes. The flip side of that coin was that when Merc came with the V6 it was a looper and OMC chose to regress to the crossflow design for theirs, which I guess wasn't as much of a regression as just the lazyness of adding 2 more cyls to their old V4's instead of a total redesign. The OMC's even though more inches always struggled to run with the little V6 loopers from Merc, although the class was a lot closer than the 50 cu inch stuff.

Raceman
12-24-2005, 09:47 AM
Please explain, I'm not clear on what you are talking about .... Merc's E and OMC's E where both 49ci

Sam, maybe he's talkin' about when the OMC's stepped up and ran against the 4 cyl Mercs like the 850XS (F's????) I know they did it at the backyards, don't remember about APBA. You gotta let the OMC boyz have somethin' to crow about.;)

Fast Fred
12-24-2005, 10:11 AM
since them days, the Merc guys have come up with a 52ci nohead gasket, diafram reed motor. made about a 3-4yr run, then thay went to a 59ci no head gasket, diafram reed motor made about a 3-4 yr run. on the race course it did well, as long as every thing else was about 20ci smaller :eek: the 59ci Merc would not stand up to a stock Stinger 75hp but for low low end footLbs. :cool:

Mark75H
12-24-2005, 10:38 AM
since them days, the Merc guys have come up with a 52ci nohead gasket, diafram reed motor. made about a 3-4yr run, then thay went to a 59ci no head gasket, diafram reed motor made about a 3-4 yr run. on the race course it did well, as long as every thing else was about 20ci smaller :eek: the 59ci Merc would not stand up to a stock Stinger 75hp but for low low end footLbs. :cool:

That's not class E

Fast Fred
12-24-2005, 12:21 PM
yes, it's not E, not that if thay were things would be dif' than thay turned out.
thing is i know thay(merc) could do far better. after ya see a 2.5 OS case,
them no head gasket diafram motors, well you know :cool:

2us70
12-24-2005, 04:10 PM
What's a "diaphram reed " motor. I had a lot of inline Mercs apart in my day and I never heard of that one.

Fast Fred
12-25-2005, 06:04 AM
the reed is vertical to the carb throat, insted of horizontal, it gets in it's own way. :cool:

Raceman
12-25-2005, 07:17 AM
the reed is vertical to the carb throat, insted of horizontal, it gets in it's own way. :cool:

Say what?????????? Have you ever been inside an E Merc (or any of the older inlines?) Granted the reedblock design leaves a lot to be desired, but I can't figure how they could be described as "diaphram" or "vertical".

Fast Fred
12-25-2005, 09:29 AM
Merry Christmas out thare :cool:


ok, mix comes in to a reed cage, houses a main bearing, mix has to make a 90deg. turn hear, :( , feeds in to the case through holes in the side of the main bearing reed cage to the reed which is in a vert' location to flow :eek: :( ,
reed stops to keep the reeds out of the crank :( , and :eek: it's got to make another 90deg. (the flow mix) turn to fill the case. :( :cool:,

would like to see a Merc Mod50 :cool:

MN4V
12-25-2005, 11:17 AM
Now you got me trying to remember the name of the guy who set that E Production 1 hour record in 74. I also set a 1 hour record that day in SD with a 50 merc (50.382). I recall him passing me in Boca Chica channel on the last lap of the race and giving me a big thumbs up. Attached pic taken early in race with full fuel.

Would it have been Corky Calahan ? I don't remember if he raced FE or FJ at that time.
Mark Nelson

2us70
12-25-2005, 11:47 AM
I just remembered the guy's name, Bill Vogel. Good guy and solid driver as I now remember.

MN4V
12-25-2005, 12:57 PM
Did he run a Delta?

Raceman
12-25-2005, 01:10 PM
Merry Christmas out thare :cool:


ok, mix comes in to a reed cage, houses a main bearing, mix has to make a 90deg. turn hear, :( , feeds in to the case through holes in the side of the main bearing reed cage to the reed which is in a vert' location to flow :eek: :( ,
reed stops to keep the reeds out of the crank :( , and :eek: it's got to make another 90deg. (the flow mix) turn to fill the case. :( :cool:,

would like to see a Merc Mod50 :cool:

A Merc Mod50 is just a T2/T2X powerhead sawed in half. It has the same high rise lookin' front half with the same horizontal reeds as the T2's, and of course the alum flywheel and 3 one barrel tillotsens.

I don't think that the reed configuration is the major performance blocker in these motors, but rather the fact that they're the very inefficient (by comparison) cross flow/direct charge design rather than the looper as the 3 cyl OMC is. If the reeds were the single holdback, then putting the T2 style front on the Mod 50 motors would've made em competitive with the OMC's, and they never were.

2us70
12-25-2005, 08:24 PM
I think Bill Vogel may have ben in a Delta but I'm not sure. I am pretty sure it wasn't a Checkmate.

MagicFloat
12-25-2005, 09:55 PM
You are talking SE here,not FE,so it couldn't have been a Checkmate. Delta as I recall,but I have lots of senior moments :)and could be wrong.I know it was not a McCall, I have all the listings of all the drivers and all the wins and records,that name doesn't show up.2us70,what happened to your McCalls? Funny how our old stuff disappears and we have no idea where it went.

Raceman
12-25-2005, 09:59 PM
Funny how our old stuff disappears and we have no idea where it went.

It's a shame it don't work that way with ex-wives.:rolleyes: That's considered old stuff ain't it?:confused: :confused:

MagicFloat
12-25-2005, 10:04 PM
:D ;)

2us70
12-26-2005, 01:44 PM
Vogel ran FE back then. My wife lives in fear of me finding that old McCall. If I ever trip over it I would love to restore it and hang an old 4 cyl 50 short on it again. It would be neat to do a few more laps in it before I get too old to drive a kneeldown boat. I think the hardest part would be finding parts and props for one of those old 50s.

David_L6
12-26-2005, 02:24 PM
It's a shame it don't work that way with ex-wives.:rolleyes:

Ain't that tha truth!!!

David_L6
12-26-2005, 02:27 PM
Vogel ran FE back then. My wife lives in fear of me finding that old McCall. If I ever trip over it I would love to restore it and hang an old 4 cyl 50 short on it again. It would be neat to do a few more laps in it before I get too old to drive a kneeldown boat. I think the hardest part would be finding parts and props for one of those old 50s.


What motor are you talking about and what motor is that in your pic on page 1 of this thread? :confused:

2us70
12-26-2005, 04:30 PM
The answer to both questions is a 44ci 4 cyl Merc 500 short shaft (15in) with manual start. I bet it would be tough to find one of those today.
When I started in SE this was the only competitive motor and a lot of people refered to SE as the "50 Class". That boat was the last SE National Champ with a 50. In 1971 the 49in 3 cyl OMCs and Mercs made the 50 obselete in SE. In 74 APBA changed the D Class ci limit to include the 44in 50s. I ran the boat for 2 more years in SD after that. I tried a 49in Merc on the boat but it was only driveable on long wide turn courses. The boat had a bad tendancy to barrel roll on tighter turns once I got it where it would run 62 or better.62 was about the best I got out of the 500 and the 650 would run well over 70 but on the tight courses that became common it was useless.

peterse90
01-01-2006, 10:26 PM
Can any of you historians tell me if Mercury ever was able to compete in SE after 1973? I know Mercs won Nationals in 70 and 73 but after that I don't recall any Mercury boats that could keep up with the OMC 3cyl 49in motors. I was running SD and G Production after 73 and the OMCs pretty much had SE to themselvs.
In 1974 if you wanted to run a Merc in FE or SE you had to run the Merc 650 3-cylinder 49.8 cubic inch. I ran FE with this motor, Merc specs were an rpm range of 4800 to 5300. Unfortunately I never put a tach on my 650 but I don't think I was turning anywhere near 6000 (if I remember the prop was a 3 blade offshore style 18...don't remember the diameter). Against the 70 hp OMC's I really didn't stand much of a chance.
In 1975 Merc introduced the 3 cylinder 650XS. Basically the Mod 50 650X with a stock tower housing and gearcase, 3 cylinder/3 carbs/light-weight flywheel. I remember a Merc brochure in 75 or 76 where they showed the 650XS, 850XS and 150XS. The 650XS was rated at 92 hp (back then that would have been crankshaft rated hp). The 650XS was legal for FE and SE in Canada and Europe but was not allowed in the USA. From 1975 on Merc pretty much abandoned FE / SE in the USA.
I ran a 650XS in SE for 2 years, had to run 18:1 mixture and use av gas. I could turn my 650XS at about 7500 rpm with a 3-blade 18 thru the hub cleaver, and at 7400 with a 3-blade 19 over the hub cleaver. I know a couple of the other guys were getting close to 8000 with their 650XS.
On a really good day in practice I could hit close to 75mph, in competition we could run 72 to 74. Against the 75hp OMC's we were as even as could be. The 650XS could out accelerate the OMC but on a long straight once the OMC's got their much larger 23 inch pitch props up to rpm they were usually a little faster on top speed.
Its too bad the 650XS wasn't able to run in the USA. It was a great sounding engine and could compete easily with the OMC's. It was almost like Merc handed OMC FE/SE and OMC handed Merc SST 120.
Here are some pictures of my 650XS and my Seebold SE boat.

Jeff_G
01-02-2006, 09:19 AM
Peterse90, If I remember correctly you have about got it right. By the late 70's SE was solely the providence of OMC. I ran SE for about 6 years. Dependable motors. I bought a short block from a dealer as a backup. When I sold the boat 3 years later, it was still in the box. When I ran it only the OMC ran and I believe was the only legal motor.
Mercury and OMC kind of got together and decided to not have more than one brand motor in a class. The APBA, dominated by the factories, followed along.
For example the SST 120 we know today, (different from the earlier 120 class that became 140). And the OMC SST 100 came out around the same time. Both were the same approx. CI. But OMC wanted their class and Merc theirs. The OMC class eventially died. SST 120 is the largest class in OPC today.

Fast Fred
01-02-2006, 09:55 AM
Peterse90,
Mercury and OMC kind of got together and decided to not have more than one brand motor in a class. The APBA, dominated by the factories, followed along.

wow.... WTF is with that :eek: :cool:

Mark75H
01-02-2006, 10:49 AM
wow.... W*&# is with that :eek: :cool:

Welcome to the real world :rolleyes:

CALVIN
01-02-2006, 12:18 PM
What was considered a hot set up in SD back in the day?.....the McCalls were very beautiful....I remember quite a few ran in southern md. during the late 60s....what sort of motor tweeks were done?.....was the 3 blade chopper or cleaver used....I have a 2 blade bronze wheel for a 500 that has the ends of the blades sliced off like a cleaver

2us70
01-03-2006, 07:07 PM
The best running SD boats when I last ran in 75 were a cut down Critchfield V bottom, a Hauptner tunnel and my McCall V bottom. All ran 44ci 50s which were required to be "production stock" motors. I ran a 20in 2 blade prop worked by Bobby Soles with an added exhaust tube. I don't know what the other guys were using. I tried a 3 blade cleaver but it was no good on my boat. The best running motors for me were "carefully assembled" .15 over bored blocks. Attention to detail in assembly and break-in was important in getting the best possible compression and proper timing and carb setup were also important.

ray lumpkin
01-13-2006, 04:29 PM
2us70, I have enjoyed reading about you SE and McCall boats. In my first year 1971 I race a flatbottom DeSilver in SE with a 50 Merc, had some of those brass props cut straight. Just had the wrong boat. Next raced 2 different McCall boat in SH classs. Ran in Southern Md., a lot.Tell me about your McCall vee bottom. Only saw one, though thats all John made (1).
I have been hobbing with old boats and motors about 2 years . I have 2 1968 50hp short shaft Mercs like I raced. Just got a 15 foot glass E&T tunnel like I raced in Mod 90 class and a wooden Herring tunnel SST120 boat E&T were built in southern Md. I am looking for a round nose wooden McCall.Enclose picture of mCCall I had.
Ray

2us70
01-13-2006, 04:48 PM
My V bottom McCall based on a flat bottom that he built for Paul Angel as a kilo boat. John just put the same bottom design on it that he had been using on the higher side E class V bottoms.

Skeeter0226
03-08-2006, 04:14 PM
I think Bill Vogel may have ben in a Delta but I'm not sure. I am pretty sure it wasn't a Checkmate.

Is this Bill Vogel? I'm thinking that's what Dad told me.

2us70
03-09-2006, 09:18 AM
I think it is Bill. I haven't seen that boat since 1974 when we set 1 hour records at Key West in the same race. That boat was the best running E Production (FE) boat I can remember.

Skeeter0226
03-09-2006, 03:10 PM
My Dad was Bob Sanders, the designer and builder of the Delta Boats. Did you know him?

2us70
03-09-2006, 06:12 PM
No I never met him. The Deltas start showing up in the last few years I was racing. In 1973 I was working part time for Action Marine and one of our boats ,Rocket Man driven by Roger Dixon, had a duel with a Delta in SG at the Nationals. Roger drove the race of his life and won by a hair. That was the first Delta I recall seeing. All I knew about them was they were built "up north" and they ran real good in E&G classes.

Skeeter0226
03-09-2006, 06:40 PM
Most of the Deltas were built in the New Orleans area. In 73, we moved to Indiana in the old GW Invader factory. Bob ran a boat in G that year with a 85 Merc. He did come in second at the nationals that year. Was the boat White with a red and blue fade stripe around the cockpit?

MagicFloat
03-09-2006, 07:07 PM
2us70,your mention of Rocket Man brought back one of my best memories. I raced a 13'Checkmate in FG,we had a divisional in Clanton,AL. Rocket Man showed up from Fl,no one knew him,it appeared to be an exact copy of my MX-13.12 boats headed for the clock,he was far on the outside,no chance I thought. But he was so fast that he passed us all in the first turn,way outside. Some one protested,they broke his engine into a thousand pieces,found nothing,he got the win.30 years later when I hear Elton John's "RocketMan" on the radio,I get emotional. You knew the boat,it's been 30 years,tell me how he was so fast,I won't tell anyone

2us70
03-09-2006, 07:44 PM
Action Marine made a lot of changes to that design and "Rocket Man" was the result of a lot of testing and experimenting. That boat was built to the exact letter of the rule book and we tried everything that the rules allowed.If I can find and scan some slides I will post some pictures of a couple of us testing "Rocket Man". Skeeter, yes that was the Delta I remember. I was also running in SG at that Nationals but failed to make the final due to an unfortunate failure of a control box part during post race weigh in the elimination heat.

MagicFloat
03-09-2006, 10:33 PM
Rules were pretty tough in the old days. In Miami I finished high enough to move to the next heat in FG. Waiting on the scales I drifted to the wall ,put my hand on the wall to push away,was disqualified for having contact before weighing.Tough but fair I guess.

2us70
03-09-2006, 10:57 PM
Wasn't always fair. My DQ at Eufala had more to do with who finished behind me than with the legality of the boat I was driving.

Skeeter0226
03-10-2006, 11:21 AM
I believe that was the only time Bob ran in FG. The next year he moved up to a Kitson and ran SG. I guess that was the last year Bob raced. His specialty always was FE though. He did a few races with Bill Maddox in Clanton with a SE boat over the next few years.

T2x
03-10-2006, 01:53 PM
Rules were pretty tough in the old days. In Miami I finished high enough to move to the next heat in FG. Waiting on the scales I drifted to the wall ,put my hand on the wall to push away,was disqualified for having contact before weighing.Tough but fair I guess.
Magic:

I still have some paperwork for your G-3 and Trailer. PM me your mailing address and I'll send the stuff.

T2x

2us70
03-10-2006, 04:57 PM
From 1974 on the 49in Mercs could not stay with the 49in OMCs in APBA SE or E Production. To the best of my recolection the last Mercury SE National win was at Eufala in 73 by Bobby Drewery with yours truely in 2nd both with Merc 3cyl 650s. After that OMC upped the power of their E motors and that was all she wrote. In classes like these even 5 hp is big and OMC eventually went to 75 hp. I went through the demise of the 44in motors as the dominant engine in E class in 71( I was the last SE Champ with a 44in) and I went through the same thing with the 650s.

BarryStrawn
03-10-2006, 07:44 PM
Wasn't the 650XS a race engine that Mercury couldn't get approved to run in production classes in the US? A "ringer" more or less. How did it compare to the Evinrude CC and Johnson SR race engines?

BarryStrawn
03-10-2006, 08:14 PM
So what was this post about?


I don't know what this talk of the 3 cylinder looper OMC's beating the 650XS's is all about. In Canada, my friend ran a 160lbs leecraft hull with a stock 650XS and would easily beat the OMC's. He was well over 70 mph in a straight line and his kilo record proves it. I saw his boat run two years ago with a different driver and it still won and it runs slower now than before he sold it. This boat started out behind the rest (last place) because the motor didn't start right away (typics 650XS for you) and he ended up winning. This was running against 56 cubic inch OMC's as well.

I really don't see how everyone can say that the OMC was a faster engine than the 650XS because it wasn't legal in the states.

David
03-10-2006, 08:22 PM
Memory is a tricky thing and I was a fan not a racer 30 years ago, so I wasn't as close to it as some of the posters here. But my memory of racing in Ontario is that the 3 cyl OMCs ruled back in the mid 70s.

My current connection is an old Merc FE prop.

Mark75H
03-10-2006, 08:51 PM
Wasn't the 650XS a race engine that Mercury couldn't get approved to run in production classes in the US? A "ringer" more or less. How did it compare to the Evinrude CC and Johnson SR race engines?
Yes the 650XS was never approved...thats why we have them all.

Its not as hot of a motor as a CC...the CC ran against the 650 and 700X which was a 650 XS with a 12 incher, speedmaster, higher porting again, drop on cowling, etc. etc. you get the picture
I'm prettysure the 650xs was produced in quantity of 250+ per year and completely legal as a production motor. However, unless I am mistaken the 650x and 700x were not approved even as race motors.

A 650xs isn't the same type of motor as a CC or SR. The CC and SR are all out race motors with racing lower units, the XS is a full gear shift production motor; meeting all the criteria, ie advertized in the regular brochures etc

Fast Fred
03-10-2006, 09:28 PM
:cool:

MagicFloat
03-10-2006, 10:14 PM
We made an effort to run the 49 ci 3 cyl Merc in FE with a paper thin 13'Checkmate, guess it was 1974?Did not work,we could not run with the OMC's. Went back to FG.Tough for an old die hard Merc guy like me,but reality is what it is

Fast Fred
03-11-2006, 07:39 AM
Stinger, as in Stinger75hp:cool: . 650XS as in 65hp:eek: :eek:.
SST60, 2.5 O.S., shiftable race Modas, Champs of thare class.
2.5hp Seagull, got the racin foot, i don't think it's a racemotor, for more like junk.:eek: :eek: :cool:

Mark75H
03-11-2006, 07:53 AM
Stinger, as in Stinger75hp:cool: . 650XS as in 65hp:eek: :eek:.
SST60, 2.5 O.S., shiftable race Modas, Champs of thare class.
2.5hp Seagull, got the racin foot, i don't think it's a racemotor, for more like junk.:eek: :eek: :cool:The 3 carb 650xs is a lot more than 65HP

Fast Fred
03-11-2006, 08:45 AM
did the cfm's gain make that much of a dif'?, is it not less than a 1/2" gain in carb bore? is the triple carb the merc mod50?:cool:

MN4V
03-11-2006, 10:09 AM
I also remember a 650xs running in FE class. This one was on a Hydrostream Vixen and run by Tony Sitar's brother from Wilmington, IL.
I don't remember that it did super great, but OK.
The boat was built as a race boat also.
Mark Nelson

Fast Fred
03-11-2006, 02:22 PM
O.K. then............... looks alot dif' than the two carb pile i was thinkin about,..... could put it on the back of an SLT, and bring it to the TOP'O:eek: :eek: and whats the kilo record on the 650, One Hundred and,?,what.:eek: :cool:

Fast Fred
03-11-2006, 04:27 PM
what foot was on it?:cool:

P man
03-11-2006, 07:01 PM
from what Ive seen of these motors (which isnt much) It seemed as though the stingers had alot more torque. The xs seemed to dominate in the straights but took quiet some time to get the mph up. I think the omc's were able to keep up do to their high output at realitivly low rpm...

does that sound right?

Fast Fred
03-11-2006, 07:11 PM
yes, that would sound right, thinkin the compression is about 125psi or so,on Av, with 1.62's guna take a min to spoolup. :eek: :cool:

David
03-11-2006, 08:13 PM
Someone like Houndog would know better, but here I go anyway. When I was shopping for a Voo Doo I talked to a couple of racers. I even bought a prop from one. No one said that the 650XS was the hot ticket to racing success and all dissed it for recreational use. OMC loopers, the 650XS, the most recent 3 cyl Merc 60, and the 70 Yamaha have all won races. If the 650XS was that good it would win all the races.

I don't doubt that set up right and in tune the 650XS would be fastest in a kilo run. I do doubt that it made close to 90 propshaft HP, not that they claimed that.

Curiously, by 1989, OMC didn't list propshaft HP for the 75E. The rpm range was 5200-5800. I wonder if it was < 70 at the propshaft.

In 1976 Merc listed the 650XS at 90 crankshaft HP and the rpm at 6000-7000. My guess is 80 propshaft HP if the moon and stars aligned.

Of course no one told me that a 70 Nissan ever won a race:)

$5 says that my Voo Doo is faster at the season opener.

mk30h
03-11-2006, 09:45 PM
the most recent 3 cyl Merc 60, and the 70 Yamaha have all won race
not really a fair comparison as the new 60 has 10 more cubes, same with the Yam I think.

P man
03-11-2006, 10:58 PM
I cant picture a lee craft...
This isnt what you are talking about is it?

Fast Fred
03-12-2006, 05:45 AM
Stinger 75hp, 75hp at the shaft, the prop shaft. seen it.:eek: :cool:

Fast Fred
03-12-2006, 07:19 AM
the Yama is 52cubes:cool:

CALVIN
03-12-2006, 08:12 AM
Does anyone know why the apba would not allow the 650xs to run in fe and se in the US.....seems like a legal motor...as far as production and gearcase go

Fast Fred
03-12-2006, 08:22 AM
?, maybe the rules were dif' then, I 'd like the see how that merc goes next to a
FT-19s OMC.:cool:

Mark75H
03-12-2006, 08:31 AM
The 3 cylinder Merc racers sucked next to the OMC mod full race motors, esp the more advanced models. A few times a boat/driver/prop combination made up the difference, but in general a deflector piston motor can't compete with a loop charged motor of the same size.

The differences between the performance of loopers and deflector/crossflow motors is so great that in current APBA PRO classes previously approved deflector motors are legally allowed to step down one class and still don't have a chance of winning. I'm going to propose making the step down rule go to 2 motor sizes - where they'd at least have a chance (but not very good chance) of winning.

Fast Fred
03-12-2006, 09:20 AM
The 3 cylinder Merc racers sucked
:eek: :eek: LOL:eek: :eek:

David_L6
03-12-2006, 09:47 AM
?, maybe the rules were dif' then, I 'd like the see how that merc goes next to a
FT-19s OMC.:cool:

Yeah, that would be interesting.

Mark75H
03-12-2006, 01:07 PM
You have to know this: the 90 hp was a slight exaggeration :( or possibly a misprint. (I challenge you to find anything with the "plus" in print ... you may have "heard" it, but it wasn't a fact.) In fact, the 65 hp of the std 650 was an exaggeration.

I can't find it right now, but OMC had actually threatened Merc with a false advertizing law suit over the std 650/65hp exaggeration

Jimboat
03-12-2006, 01:21 PM
Does anyone know why the apba would not allow the 650xs to run in fe and se in the US.....seems like a legal motor...as far as production and gearcase go

The Merc 650XS did not meet minimum commercial production volume rates in the US. It met Canadian minimums. Hence, the difference in allowable engines in APBA vs. CBF.

Mark75H
03-12-2006, 01:39 PM
I don't know about that. My friend had motors that were over 90 on the dyno. I can believe the standard 650 was less because it was a pile of poop. Maybe 65 at the powerhead, but the XS was up there.Hearsay. Find it in print.

David
03-12-2006, 03:25 PM
I guess 90 HP is possible.

90 HP X (153/50) = 275
Certainly 275 HP is possible from a 2.5L 153 cube motor. So by scaling down, 90 could be had from 50 cubes.

But I'm not convinced.

90 crankshaft less 10% would be about 81 propshaft. Spitting distance from 75 propshaft HP.

Brian Sherriff set a course record somewhere or other with his Critchfield/98 60 HP Merc. No one ever accused the 60 HP Merc of making big HP. So how was he able to set a record? Or maybe torque trumps HP when a standing start and turns are factored in.

I'll give the 650XS the edge in a kilo, and the edge in coolness.

Fast Fred
03-12-2006, 03:46 PM
Xflow as in no-flow.:eek:

Hounddog
03-12-2006, 05:25 PM
Guys, I was out of town all weekend and you all have made good points. We have raced all of the motors and here is how they run on a EP boat on a race course.
650 xs does hold the record in Canada on an Oasis hull 60 Mph average. Boat ran on radar 69 mph on the straights.
Stinger on a Critchfield hold the APBA record at almost the same speed.
Yamaha 70 Ces holds no records in EP
Mercury 60 cu, in. holds no records

the 650 xs has to be on a light boat and the driver has to keep his foot in it all the time, The motor is difficult to tune and they dyno 86 hp at the prop shaft-90 hp at the crank if their fresh. Compression is 148 to 152 lbs. The Lee shown was ours. It radared 71.6 mph on the back straight 1996 Dunniville.
That's 1:64 gearcase tuning an 11.5 x 19 at 7300.
The stinger will dyno over 78 hp at the prop. It works good on both light hulls and heavier ones. Racers run them anywhere between 6400 to 7200, On the same boat the motors are very close.
The Yamaha and 60 cu Mercury were winning because they are ported as fishing motors. They get off the dock faster and accelerate out of the corners better. They don't have any records because they don't have the top end speed. They run out of breath at 6500.
The motor your missing is the 56 cu. in OMC. It has more grunt off the dock and can turn in the 7000's. Craig Ferrier was the best boat until he blew the motor. The motor was shot at Belwoods. That is why it ran poorly.

BOTTOMLINE IS THAT YOU CAN WIN WITH ANY OF THEM.

David
03-12-2006, 06:41 PM
Thanks Houndog.

Inline 6 has the light boat for the 650XS. He should be fast.

I noticed that the Nissan never won anything:)

Despite that, given the reputation of the 650XS as difficult to tune, I bet I'm faster at the season opener. By August Inline 6 should be chasing my Ally.

Hounddog
03-12-2006, 08:42 PM
David, Nissan is made by Tohatsu and They can be killer motors. Their 40c is number one in Sport C. The 50D will be very strong in "D" class stock hydro.
I think that powerhead of yours was the one they raced in Japan in the 2 cylinder mod class and those tunnels ran high 90's. By pass the rev limiter
and instal Boyeson 2 stage reeds. The motor may come to life.

mk30h
03-13-2006, 03:45 PM
Their 40c is number one in Sport C. The 50D will be very strong in "D" class stock hydro.

Is there a racing loweruit and midsection for these engines. If so, who, how much, where?

Hounddog
03-13-2006, 06:01 PM
mk30h ,The Sport C Tohatsu is a 15 inch motor with a stock gear case. The 50D will run on a Bass mid and quickie. Cost complete is around $5000. US and there is a waiting list for the motors.

David
03-13-2006, 07:19 PM
Should I buy more pitch as well as bypassing the rev limiter?

5800 rpm = 51 mph
If my slip held the same it would take 6800 rpm to see 60 mph

what is the best option for more pitch?

option 1

buy Tabara racings 22 Merc cleaver - that might take 6200 for 60 mph

option 2

buy a custom semi cleaver from http://www.superiortrolling.com/html/mini_series.html
If I go with this option I can get 11 or 11.5 diameter and whatever pitch I want. I'm thinking 23 and disable the rev limiter or 24? 23 would only need 5900 rpm for 60.

The rev limiter is easy enough to disable. I should have done it last year but I got distracted by my Allison.

Hounddog
03-13-2006, 10:59 PM
David, one of the advantages of this class is the motors have a common spline and similar props. I wouldn't spend any more money on another prop until you run your current prop without the rev limiter. BUY REEDS! There will be an assortment of props that you can try at the races. Try em before you buy em and try as many props as you can. What doesn't work on one boat can be the perfect prop for another. Likely the real fast Voo Doo "Production" hulls will run in the 60 range. There will be alot of tired motors and poor set-ups that run in the mid 50's. Just removing the rev limiter and 2 stage reeds should put you in the battle. Then its all up to how fast you learn to drive around a race course and that can be a challenge, but a lot fun too.

Hounddog
03-13-2006, 11:03 PM
Sherlock, your good memory is correct and didn't you run in SE at one time before moving up to the inlines.

Hydrovector
03-14-2006, 08:06 AM
All good reading on this thread. What I remember from back then was the 650XS was not the same. The production stinger that was avalible at the dealer. the Merc was out of mercury racing and was not the same motor as the production 65. Two carb vs. 3 carb. Wasn't Charlie Stang head of APBA then? The head of OMC at the helm of The APBA? When I was racing in the late 70's there were no Mercs in the EP or SE classes If you stepped up you could run GP or SG which were 85hp merc and a 75 stinger would stomp all over it. I've been to Canada and watched the 650XS and the 75 stinger run together. Sorry the 75 is no match to the 650xs on a good set up. One day I'll have to digitize video so you can see for yourselfs.

Hounddog
03-14-2006, 09:26 AM
John Sherlock you old fox. YOU HAVE THE CBF RECORD!

OCT. 1976 L.Pinel/J. Sherlock Welland 77.405 mph

Was that a 650XS?

Hydrovector, the 650 XS was the top engine in EP in Canada until Mercury
stopped the factory support and with the availability of more Critchfield hulls.
By the mid 90's OMC was king in EP. The 911 boat of Jim Whittington's came close to winning the Nationals in 96 but barrel rolled in the final heat after winning the first three heats. In 97 in was all OMC again. In 98 we saw the
the first appearance of the Yamaha and the 60 cu. in. Mercury. These motors
are much quicker off the dock and the 650xs had to run them down. Made for some great racing for the fans. In 2000 the 56 cu. in. OMC appeared. It was even faster off the dock and had better top end. It became the better choice. To-day all of these motors are competitive. On the long courses the 650 xs can and does run down the field provided there are few boats in the heat. Put 12 boats in the heat and the water is so rough that the advantage goes to the best set-up.

2us70
03-14-2006, 09:28 AM
Obviosly the APBA and Canadian definition of a Sport E boat are significantly different.
Sherlock, how is that wing on a stick project going?

Fast Fred
03-14-2006, 09:32 AM
Super Stinger:eek: :cool: ( the 3 cyl one):eek:

Raceman
03-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Man, you guys sure have different memories and expectations of what the 650XS did in it's day. The only place I ever saw em run was at the backyard races, but the ones around here had fair turnouts and the guys that ran the OMC's usually ran the APBA events also. Around here at least the 3 cyl OMC's dominated the classes, including the one that the 4 cyl mercs like the 850XS ran in, even though they were 66 inches.

I didn't read the whole thread, but there really isn't any comparison between the 650XS and production 650. The XS has the port timing of the T2, along with half the same front half with the big horizontal reeds, while the 650 has the reedblocks on the crank. All that having been said the real killer is the blatantly inferior crossflow/direct charge design compared to the loop charging of the 3 cyl OMC. Actually I have a hard time believing that the XS would pull 9 more HP on a dyno than the 3 cyl OMC in spite of the XS's front half and carbs BECAUSE OF the superiority of the looper.

Like I've said before, always rootin' for the black motors we always went to the concession stand when anything with 3 cyl motors went in the water at the races, 'cause we knew it wasn't gonna be pretty.

I have a pair of 650XS's and would like very much to believe that they out horsepower a 75 Stinger, but just don't think it's realistic.

Somebody mentioned production requirements to make em APBA legal back then. What was the minimum and what did Merc build? There was a dealer about 50 miles from here that was stockin' em and riggin' em on small bassboats. When I was trying to find one for my collection several years ago I was told that this particular dealer sold about a dozen of em. (I'd think it'd be a dog on a 15' bassboat:( ) Anyhow, surely Merc built hundreds of em???????????

Hounddog
03-14-2006, 10:52 AM
Raceman, the big difference here in Canadian was Mercury's control of the OPC division. No question Mercury got an advantage. The SST 90 which was a dog compared to an SST 60 in APBA, so much so that SST 90 class died in APBA. SST 90 and SST 60 raced together in OPC division in Canada. The SST 90 was usually the top boat until the factory support stopped. Same for the 650 xs. It was a mod engine elsewhere and stock in OPC EP class here. There was a big difference in the factory supported motors compared to the regular joe's 650 xs. There were generally 2 top 650 xs supported boats, a bunch of omc's and the tail enders were oridinary 650 xs. Which usually broke down.
There is a big difference between a good 650 xs and a running of the mill one.
The basic design is poor. The motor can't sustain high RPM without blowing -up. They eat pistons. They hate low RPM and boog. There hard to start. They spray gas everywhere. But, they look and sound great! And when there right, there great to drive.

Raceman
03-14-2006, 11:04 AM
....... But, they look and sound great! And when there right, there great to drive.

They're great lookin' on an engine stand. That's the only REAL firsthand experience I have with em.

lilabner
03-20-2006, 10:39 PM
Good deal on the garage..what do you think your next biggest expense will be..??? sand paper or beer...:D :D :confused:

Good luck

Butch

JAKE62
03-23-2006, 08:59 PM
Hey Ya'll, I'll been lurking for a while but this is my frist post. I have a 650 XS hanging in the shop, cool motors but I raced 49 ci OMCs many years and in the NOA where you could modifly the motors I don't remember getting beat by many mercs. Inline6 what was your freinds kilo record, I have the NOA record set in 1986 with a 225 lb Critchfield @ 85.40 MPH made a one way pass over 87

Fast Fred
03-23-2006, 09:11 PM
hey JAKE62,
so if i'm readin ya right, your sayin you layed down a 85mph kilo with a hot Stinger:eek: i got that right?:cool:

JAKE62
03-23-2006, 09:16 PM
Thats right Critchfield 13' Vee

JAKE62
03-23-2006, 09:19 PM
Well I don't think NOA ran a full kilo but its a stright-A-way record

Fast Fred
03-24-2006, 06:26 AM
what carbs did you have on the front of that Stinger?:cool:
was you run the Stinger three plate Exhaust?

T2x
03-24-2006, 10:13 AM
Well I don't think NOA ran a full kilo but its a stright-A-way record

To my knowledge the NOA records were either "flying mile" or "flying kilo" records using the Kiekhaefer timing equipment just like APBA, but not recognised by the UIM.

T2x

JAKE62
03-24-2006, 12:59 PM
Fast Fred, the NOA rules at that time you could modify stock parts no mod 50 parts. My motor was a 1979 75 stock carbs just ported and tight head

99fxst99
05-14-2006, 09:15 PM
Hey Ray! You never know who you might run into on this thing! How you doing? For the rest of you I had a McCall SE that started life as a SG (kneel-down I think). 2us70, U R right. I barrelled mine at Piney Point in '78. It was fun on a sweeping course though. Last I heard the boat was in NJ, many years ago. I went back to v-bottoms.
Smokey Glover
SE321 McCall Johnson 75
JP321 Allison Merc 150
SO321 Hydrostream Merc 175
MVP96 LTV Merc Mod VP 2.4

billy-jay
12-23-2006, 09:10 AM
I think it is Bill. I haven't seen that boat since 1974 when we set 1 hour records at Key West in the same race. That boat was the best running E Production (FE) boat I can remember. I have that boat.We bought it from Bob Gallo in the early 80s...last time we ran it was 1986 and won in Dunnville Ontario still using the#302.I thought it said S&W made in Indiana 1972...It was a great running boat and fun to drive....

billy-jay
12-23-2006, 09:33 AM
Im talking about the 650XS running against a stock 75 stinger and the stinger supposedly beating it. Its just not going to happen unless the 650XS is blown up or something.

If a 650XS ran against a CC it would loose because they are completely different. I know where there is a complete 700X powerhead and its not a lot different, just ports and such.At Dunnville in 1986 I ran against Steve Huffs 650 with my Evinrude/Delta and did pretty good and then again in 1987 won 4 heats with my Evinrude/Critchfield.My hats off to Steve as he could really drive that boat and his 650 was something else...I remember I could hear that 650 screaming when we were side by side...man that thing was loud....aaaah...the good old days....I know we didnt have the horsepower the 650s had and as the boats got lighter the more it suited the 650s.In the next few years at Dunnville guys keep showing up with the lighter boats and it was hard to keep up with Todd Clark and paul Krysco and the 650s...They were really fast and so was Steve Hueniki with his OMC and the last year we had Tim drive because he was 50 lbs lighter than me...It made a difference but was still not enough... but I had a great time racing in Dunnville and will always remember the freinds we made....Jim

billy-jay
12-28-2006, 08:50 PM
After talking about Bill Vogel I thought Id put up this picture of his old Delta when I ran it in the early-mid 80s.Looks like KKK but dont remember what year it was...Jim

TBuck2003
01-02-2007, 10:25 AM
Jim,
Is that the Jim Starkey of northeast ohio racing fame? Jim this is Todd Bucknell just reading some posts and was like that has got to be him in that boat.Those were some good times and yes those 650s could fly up there.Drop me a line some time would love to chat.Later and take care.

Todd

billy-jay
01-02-2007, 11:36 AM
Hey Todd...."the good old days". Here is a couple of you and your dad at Dunnville....( look at that huncher down in the last spot) Nice to hear from you and I hope you guys are doing well.Im glad to see you still have your sense of humor...Talk to you later...Jim....Off the dock...L to R... Steve Huff,Todd Bucknell,me and Steve Hueninik......

Hounddog
01-02-2007, 12:44 PM
I am always amazed at the number of people that raced in FE, EP and FV in Canada. Everyone
remarks as to how much fun it was and how much they enjoyed it. Many think it was the BEST
Class. There are still many of the same type boats around. CFB wants to get the class going again.
CBF gave special deals in 2006 to get boats entered. We had 15 to 20 people interested, but only a few
Showed on raceday. The class still runs in Europe as T-850. If the current rules were the UIM T-850
we would get a better response. With UIM rules you could set World records and that should
get true racers interested. Another suggestion was to drop the engine size to 45 cu. in max. This gets
a large number of the 40 to 45 cu. in. newer motors in. It also allows people under 16 years of age to race their
cottage boats. [remember there is a 40 hp max. boating rule in Ontario].

preacher
01-05-2007, 01:27 AM
OK, There was a comment made earlier about the 3 cycl. merc. If I'm not mistaken mercury had 1 or 2 proto type 650 XS that were looped. Man what a screamer that would have been. I am a merc fan but ther were some dyno rumors that the 49. cubic OMC's would make over 135 hp (Crank shaft). In stock form I had a 13' crithcfield w/ a 52 CI 60 merc. I ran a few 75 e motors that were stock or lightly massaged and was very competitive with these. As for the joke about the lost foam no head mercs. I have modified one and ran about 245 lbs. of compression on one and ran in the low to mid 80's on a v-bottom. Motor ran flawless and scared the three holer OMC and yamahas to the trailer. As for the comment toward the old 850 xs. I have one that is none Boost ported on a 1250 BP mid with a 650XS gearcase w/ a bobs L/W pic-up. This motor easily ran around the 52 CI Looper merc. I know this is not a new creation. I saw one at Rocks Pond .SC when I was a young boy. Mark or Mike trotter had one with a Modified t-2 x tilotson set up.(NOA the good old days). THX preacher:D

Mark75H
01-05-2007, 07:25 AM
If I'm not mistaken mercury had 1 or 2 proto type 650 XS that were looped. Man what a screamer that would have been. I am a merc fan but ther were some dyno rumors that the 49. cubic OMC's would make over 135 hp (Crank shaft).

A few weeks ago the engineer who built the Merc 3 cylinder looper explained the project over on the www.******************** forum. It was not a prototype 650XS, it was a project all to itself based on a completely new motor that Merc never produced ... so different from the exisiting Merc triples that it used a special non-production Speedmaster. The prototype that was used on the race course was raced in Europe by a German racer, not a US racer in the US.

I agree, it would have been a great motor, power was comparable to the OMC racers ... but it just should not be called a "650 XS"

Fast Fred
01-05-2007, 07:43 AM
the shop ware thay did all the 650sx stuff, got cleaned out, the book with ALL
the 650sx Dyno pulls records was Saved, 101.7hp was best 650sx pull i saw.
maybe i'll see that blind bore 52 or 59 with 240 lbs O' squish:eek: at the TOP O',
see how it doses against the same of a dif' maker bring it across Burnt lake:eek: :cool:

preacher
01-05-2007, 02:05 PM
I see that there is some doubt about the 52 ci merc with 245 lbs. of compression. I have taken the 52 ci motor built new combustion chambers and welded from the inside out and outside. The exhaust ports possed a problem to raise but was done with some efforts. The combustion chamber was filled in .250 .as the exhaust ports were raised .100 . I may some pics of the motor and even the boat running if interested. even have the machinest name and number who helped me do this. I built a slightly modified exhaust tuner as well. The flywhell was lightened and the engine turned a Jeff Titus 12 1/4 X 23 8000 RPMS on the 1.64 gear ratio. You do the math or ride the GPS. on a good day 82-83 MPH. You can call Jeff Titus he remembers me as I bought several of his props in the early to mid 90's. As for the 4 cyl 800. we put it on the same boat same prop and same gear ratio and it turned 8700 rpms and ran right at 90 -91 MPH. We experimented with a set of BP STACKS that were modified for the 800 but never followed up with the project. I will post pics of the 4 cyl. to night and with the Bp stacks . May take a few days to come w/the pics of the 6o hp 52 ci. Not to be smart or puffed up just was adding to a great thread. I had the white critch field that larry davis (GA) had with the 75 stinger. All I got was the boat. I met ken and larry davis when they were running for team HOOTERS with the late JEff Bowers on the IOGP circuit in champ (F1) and SST 140.:)

PS
It was my bad to call the looper a 650 XS. I had a 650 XS at one time as well and tour right it stood in a class all by itself.:o

Fast Fred
01-05-2007, 05:31 PM
no, it can be done. seen one thay cut the head caps off, had peddle reeds ,
it made big power, but it killed it self:cool:

preacher
01-05-2007, 05:33 PM
OK here is the pics of the 800 4 CYL on a BP mid with a 1.64 gear.

SCT
01-05-2007, 06:56 PM
What was the difference between FE and SE? Vhull and tunnels?
Thanx-

2us70
01-07-2007, 12:27 PM
FE or E Production as it became known required a stock series production hull with a seated driving position, open cockpit area for a minimum of 5 potential seats and had a higher weight limit. Tunnels and Hydros were prohibited. SE allowed drivers to kneel or even laydown, the cockpits could be as small as possibleor even enclosed and the boats weighed less. SE boats were allowed to be of any design and could be one off rather than production. Both classes shared the same motor restrictions(stock 49ci production motors with stock lower units) and the same minnium length 13'.

Mike Ward
01-11-2007, 08:03 AM
Can anybody give me information on the 1976 World SE Championship held on the Rock River at Beloit?

According to the very brief report in 'Propeller' magazine, it was won by Jeff Brown driving a Evinrude powered Seebold. I just require the 2nd and 3rd place positions.