PDA

View Full Version : Ted's Wing



rnelems
10-14-2005, 08:02 PM
Don't want to beat a dead horse cause I don't know all the background. I do know it exists,it MAY be for sale(or not) and Greg started a thread then backed away. I would like to see the photos Greg offered,and some more info which maybe only he can provide.If I am out of line I will delete the thread,but I am wondering if others are more than curious about this one, cause I am.

Mark75H
10-14-2005, 09:22 PM
There were some pictures of it in the AOMC's "Outboarder" Magazine a few years back. I'll see if I can dig them up. Newer pictures would certainly be welcome. :)

Fast Fred
10-14-2005, 09:23 PM
:cool:

greg malesev
10-16-2005, 05:04 PM
I am having difficulty getting these Pics uploaded. I hope this works.http://http://eshare.hpphoto.com/en/home/orderprints.asp?JobID={6A502919-B7B0-4DD2-BE7C-8D9A66B60C47}&IDKey=0&isflag=ExternalLink&st=7&ForceAll=1. Capt. Greg

greg malesev
10-16-2005, 05:06 PM
Apparently it did not work. I will keep trying. Feel free to give me tips. They are in a HP photo album. Greg

greg malesev
10-16-2005, 05:16 PM
http://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E2358%3D374%3D67%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B73969789ot1lsihttp://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E2358%3D374%3D67%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B73969789ot1lsiThis may have worked this time.

greg malesev
10-16-2005, 05:22 PM
More Pics of the wing. http://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E2358%3D374%3D67%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B7396978%3Aot1lsi
http://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E2358%3D374%3D67%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B7396978%3Bot1lsi http://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3267%3E283%3E58%3A%3EWSNRCG%3D3232%3C64878883nu0mrj

greg malesev
10-16-2005, 05:26 PM
http://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E2358%3D374%3D67%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B7396978%3Bot1lsiThis is the last of them. I am going to shoot a roll or two of it before it leaves my vicinity. Hope some of you guys will enjoy seeing these. Capt. Greg

MagicFloat
10-16-2005, 05:52 PM
http://images.snapfish.com/344%3C732323232%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E2358%3D374%3D67%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B7396978%3Bot1lsiThis is the last of them. I am going to shoot a roll or two of it before it leaves my vicinity. Hope some of you guys will enjoy seeing these. Capt. GregWhat does that mean"before it leaves my vicinity"? Sounds like it sold?Thanks for the photos,Greg.

greg malesev
10-16-2005, 05:56 PM
I am not saying that at all. There are people looking at it. With Ted retiring and moving I am just stating the inevitable. It will eventually leave my area whether he sells it or takes it with him. Greg

MagicFloat
10-16-2005, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the clarification ;)

Mark75H
10-16-2005, 08:03 PM
Thanks for the pictures! Pure Ted Miller for sure!

Powercat
10-17-2005, 07:43 AM
After much speculation .... As they say a picture is worth in
this case 60K words.......
Tell us more...

largecar91
10-17-2005, 07:43 PM
What a find! :cool:

T2x
10-19-2005, 04:38 PM
As I said.......those are definitely not T2x's...... see my avatar.

I do wonder what they actually are however....and I hope this boat sells to an Antique Regatta guy....who will get it wet.

T2x

delawarerick
10-19-2005, 04:54 PM
Again I have one comment its got to be worth 60k. If a superbird plymonth can sell for 160k that has got to be as desireable. I too think it should be run or else museumed. Rick

T2x
10-19-2005, 05:11 PM
Again I have one comment its got to be worth 60k. If a superbird plymonth can sell for 160k that has got to be as desireable. I too think it should be run or else museumed. Rick

Now you're talking............ Outboard Bob, Sherlock and I fully agree with you.

:p

T2x

Dave S
10-19-2005, 06:12 PM
Is that museum or masoleum???????? :rolleyes:

Raceman
10-19-2005, 07:15 PM
As I said.......those are definitely not T2x's...... see my avatar.

I do wonder what they actually are however....
T2x

They look like a pair of T2's to me. I don't know what's goin' on with the cloud white paint on the mids and lowers though. I've got an NOS BP mid that's cloud white also and I've never known why. It came out of the box that way, and with those engines made 5 years or so AFTER Merc changed to black it's always been a mystery.

WARLOCK
10-21-2005, 08:03 AM
I am still shocked that Raceman does not have this boat in one of his museums/garages. I know he has had some run-ins with Ted, but still. Later, Dave

willabee
10-21-2005, 08:23 AM
Is this the infamous Boynton Beach Wing you guys were talking about back in March?
I am still shocked that Raceman does not have this boat in one of his museums/garages. I know he has had some run-ins with Ted, but still. Later, Dave

T2x
10-21-2005, 09:26 AM
Is this the infamous Boynton Beach Wing you guys were talking about back in March?

That's the one.....in the flesh.

If those engines are complete and in good condition.....etc etc

The complete rig is quite a piece.......... and the value of antiques race boats will no doubt rise....like everything else...until prices like this are considered bargains.

RM is a crafty and shrewd negotiator and benefits greatly on the purchase side as long as antique items are , at times, under priced. He will achieve even greater rewards when the pendulum swings the other way....... and it is.... maybe not to the extent that Ted's number indicates..... but "the times they are a changin' ".

T2x............. Beginning to lust after Ted's Wing.

Mark75H
10-21-2005, 10:25 AM
I think Raceman (and a few others) may be afraid even if he has come by it legally (and there is no evidence to the contrary),Ted might not have clear title to it. Many race boats are sold with no title and without a clear paper trail from the factory, quite often actual ownership comes into dispute. Evidence Dick Davis's unpleasant episode

On the other hand, if Ted does have a clear and COMPLETE paper trail from Switzer, including every stop along the way ... his asking price becomes a lot more realistic. Documentation adds to the value 2 ways; you know what it really is, who had it where and when and what it did and did not do. Second, it proves there are no invisible strings attached to ownership.

willabee
10-21-2005, 11:24 AM
I looked at the " In Search of Wings " thread and found that when you went to see this wing, it was rigged with a pair of T2's. Are the engines in the pictures the same as the ones you saw? I agree with Raceman, they look like T2's. Is it posible that the lower color is an attempt to match the boat? FYI, you also mentioned that the asking price was 50k ( at that time ).

I'm thinking....1350 stackers @ 175 hp each on an 18' wing runs 100/110 mph.....T2's @ 200 hp each on 20' wing runs about the same?:cool:

Raceman, have you received any of my messages?

That's the one.....in the flesh.

If those engines are complete and in good condition.....etc etc

T2x.

T2x
10-21-2005, 11:48 AM
I looked at the " In Search of Wings " thread and found that when you went to see this wing, it was rigged with a pair of T2's. Are the engines in the pictures the same as the ones you saw? I agree with Raceman, they look like T2's. Is it posible that the lower color is an attempt to match the boat? FYI, you also mentioned that the asking price was 50k ( at that time ).

I'm thinking....1350 stackers @ 175 hp each on an 18' wing runs 100/110 mph.....T2's @ 200 hp each on 20' wing runs about the same?:cool:

Raceman, have you received any of my messages?

Those are the same engines I saw........ and we debated quite a bit about the T2...T2x issue...... Obviously they are not T2x's...

By the way, Ted is a great guy to talk to and visit with, and I appreciate the time he gave me...... He is not "eager" to sell anything..... hence the escalation in price from $40,000 (just prior to my visit) to $50,000 (during my visit) to $60,000 today. I guess the frustration here is that we would all like to see this wing "fly"......

Funniest thing is while I was talking to Ted he said...... "one condition upon sale of the boat....was that he wanted a ride in it from the new owner...

????????????????????????????????????? Explain that...and you understand the man :)

T2x

willabee
10-21-2005, 11:48 AM
That settles it for me, my decision has been made. About an hour ago, I was showing the Wing pictures to my wife and I was wearing my best " dog begging " expression. She said it was cool, but it didn't excite her as much as a new roof and a new driveway at the homestead would. Guess what I just ordered:(
I think Raceman (and a few others) may be afraid even if he has come by it legally (and there is no evidence to the contrary),Ted might not have clear title to it.

T2x
10-21-2005, 11:51 AM
That settles it for me, my decision has been made. About an hour ago, I was showing the Wing pictures to my wife and I was wearing my best " dog begging " expression. She said it was cool, but it didn't excite her as much as a new roof and a new driveway at the homestead would. Guess what I just ordered:(

A Molinari/T2x.....with a '76 El Camino tow vehicle?

:p :p

T2x

willabee
10-21-2005, 01:03 PM
Wouldn't be anything wrong with that either .... Bet I can still drive the H out of a Camino :)


You saw that Wing, were the DS housings and lower units painted to match the boat?

A Molinari/T2x.....with a '76 El Camino tow vehicle?

:p :p

T2x

Mark75H
10-21-2005, 01:10 PM
- are the numbers matching theory from cars applied to a boat motor

Yes. Many collectors of the smaller Mercs are very aware of the matching serial numbers making a motor a complete set; proving all the major pieces come from the same original motor. On the early 2 cylinder racing Mercs there are 3 serial numbers that agreed from the factory ... crankcase, block and serial number plate on the front. The different serial number series of the racing motors and fishing motors are pretty well documented ... anyone can learn which numbers belong on a racer and which ones indicate a motor built from look-a-like parts. Many a motor is more highly regarded by collectors when all 3 serial numbers agree. Later racing Mercs weren't marked or documented with the same ferver and there is less to go by to confirm a motor's legacy.

Willabee probably wrote down every serial number & date, but the paperwork was either lost or discarded.

How about a rough estimate from some of the guys from inside Merc? How many factory race motors & customer race motors were made per year in the BP/Twister era?

2us70
10-21-2005, 01:34 PM
My other sport is cycling and I ride through Boynton every couple of weeks. Where exactly is this boat located? I would like to ride by and check it out.

willabee
10-21-2005, 03:06 PM
That's a fact, all of those numbers and dates were recorded for the powerheads built for the team and for factory supported boats. I made a form that would tell us who built it, when, what parts were used internally and what was bolted on the outside. We would keep track of total hours it ran, who ran it, when it was rebuilt and by whom using what parts. If it failed ( remember, this is a Merc, so that didn't happen often:rolleyes: ), we would disassemble and record all totals and note reason for failure. Failures were laid out for inspection by the engineering groups. All of these forms were filed. Don't have a clue what happened to all of that info, but discarded would be my guess.
We didn't make any real attempt to keep track of midsections and, as I recall, the only thing we stamped on gearcases was ratio, rotation and builders initials.
As a result, there is no way to match things up like a car and be able to say " This is exactly the way the factory built it."
I just did some "rough" math, and my guess is we built around 120/150 of each of these type powerheads.

As you know, the customer engines were not built by the race team. Per the APBA rules back then, at least 100 units had to be built to be legal and I think just over 100 of each were built. I do not recall who kept track of the serial number information and can only guess that it has long since been destroyed. I believe those builds would have a number stamped on the powerhead that matched the one on the clamp bracket... I don't recall what they may have put on the lower unit, if anything. Raceman has an original Twister on MY next Shooting Star, he could answer this better than I can.
Willabee probably wrote down every serial number & date, but the paperwork was either lost or discarded.

How about a rough estimate from some of the guys from inside Merc? How many factory race motors & customer race motors were made per year in the BP/Twister era?

delawarerick
10-21-2005, 08:37 PM
Somebuddy buy it and run it and please tell me where. :eek: Rick
no road too long no mountain too high I will be there :D

delawarerick
10-22-2005, 08:06 AM
Inline might have a point it seems the young people want the bling bling cars like a honda with a flair kit and monster exhaust pipe. But this boat is history and a pioneer in speed and design. When all the wings are gone we will only have memories. At age 55 these boats were a dream. And give me a mopar and keep the imports!Rick

Dave S
10-22-2005, 11:25 AM
Rick the guy in the 15 winder with the BBC is the hope that some kids will play with more than gameboy....willing to get grease on their hands. ;)

T2x
10-22-2005, 12:06 PM
You saw that Wing, were the DS housings and lower units painted to match the boat?

When I was at Ted's , the wing was semi covered and behind some other things in a nook in his building ...I noted the white center sections but cannot say if they matched the boat...which was semi covered... I was able to look directly into one cockpit and it was neatly rigged. The pictures posted are actually more clear than the view I had.

T2x

T2x
10-22-2005, 12:09 PM
Just wait patiently. All things lower in price with time. By the time we are all dead and gone this stuff will probably be worthless and our following generations will be cursing us for spending our money on this stuff. If that was true a Stradivarius would sell for $3.00.

This stuff will only increase in value. For instance...what is an original early Indian Motorcycle worth?......or an early Evinrude outboard?

I'm afraid you are way off base here.

T2x

Mark75H
10-23-2005, 01:02 PM
The Wing may be unknown and under appreciated to you, but it is well enough known to have its value continually increase.

An example in the car world would be a Plymouth Super Bee. Most people wouldn't know a Super Bee if it fell on them and stung them, but there are more than enough collectors wanting one to keep the price up.

You must also factor in the supply curve on Wings: from the beginning there were less than 75, today probably less than half still exist. As long as there are more people looking than supply to fill demand .... price goes up.

The premise of your "falling price theory" is based on fewer people knowing about them and looking for one. Can you explain how they will become less known? You are quite wrong about SnF being the only info source about Wings. There are at least 4 other sites and there will be more in the future. More people will learn about their existance, not fewer.

Fast Fred
10-23-2005, 01:07 PM
:cool:

Bruster
10-23-2005, 01:26 PM
There is so much money out there, to some collectors that has to have something as rare and unique as this boat is, the amount paid is simply the amount written on the check. No more. :eek:

CUSTOM PERFORMANCE 1
10-23-2005, 02:08 PM
Ted's shop was about 2 blocks west of US1 and about 3-4 blocks north of Boynot Beach blvd, in a white warehouse on the east side of the street with a chain lind fence in front, no name on the building as I remember. :)

Bruster
10-23-2005, 03:02 PM
I'm still waiting for the boat to sell...

As I said before I doubt anyone will pay that much for it.

Expect nothing. Get nothing.

Bruster
10-23-2005, 03:10 PM
60 K for the wing, a lot of money. This is nutz.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro_W0QQitemZ4568864225QQcategoryZ6161QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Fast Fred
10-23-2005, 03:43 PM
alot of poeple seem to say what it is not worth, most likely thay could not
buy it at one third of the askin, :eek:

Fast Fred
10-23-2005, 04:52 PM
not would you, it's could you, no :eek:

Mark75H
10-23-2005, 05:21 PM
I wouldn't pay a third of the asking price for it.I'm inclined to agree that the $60k figure is probably excessive at this time. I thought the same thing for the $10k Mark75H ... until it sold.

I agree, an eBay auction would be very interesting .... but an auction tells only what 2 people are willing to pay. The top bidder might actually be willing to pay 10 times the auction price; with an auction you never know.

Raceman
10-23-2005, 06:13 PM
I think the 10K for the Mark 75H would've been a fair price if it had been as represented (at least as represented to me). When it was offered to me I was told it was an all original 75H that had never been fired, and never monkeyed with, as in new in the box (with the box gone). Someone close to the engine and the seller told me that it was in fact a motor put together from parts, NOT a complete engine from Merc as was represented, and didn't even have a true H powerhead in it. Don't know what the true condition was, but it wasn't the only fairy tale from that source and it's made me REAL skeptical of anything else that comes out of there.

T2x
10-24-2005, 08:37 AM
I'm still waiting for the boat to sell...

As I said before I doubt anyone will pay that much for it.

Please post a list of your "old stuff"....Either RM or I will be willing to give you less than you are asking.

T2x :p

T2x
10-24-2005, 08:42 AM
Getting back on topic, I was wrong I actually found sites devoted to the wing. What happened to this wing? Ive seen the picture before but can't seem to find it anywhere on here...

That wing was resurrected and purchased by Dick Davis....who later had to return it over an ownership dispute in its past..........

Sad.

Back to the value topic.....Have you been to an Antique Race boat Regatta?

That is one of the fastest growing divisions of APBA....and certainly among the most enjoyable. Ted's Wing would be one of the big hits of Clayton next year...... no doubt about it.

T2x

Dave S
10-24-2005, 08:44 AM
That chevy is priced HIGH but a real neat car.... there is a 1969 Daytona on E Bay thats up to $168,000 which is a lot for a Taxi with a wing. :eek: The chevy is a dressed up nova with a big block. :eek: If you want a real good car buy a early italian classic. But the newer ones are better cars and a skater is better than a wing..... But if $ money is not a problem you can buy them ALL. In line six has some good points but.... some people with $$ don't care and can buy what they WANT not worrying about the resale prospects. Race Man just likes to dust old motors. ;) Sorry if I have offened any car lovers out there. I have a buddy up north that sold a 1970 superbird for $10,000 20 years ago. He used the money to build houses and worked the $ 10 into 3 mill worths in the 2 houses he now owns. He has a prowler and testarosser in his garage. :) He finds it hard to jusify spending $100,000 to buy a superbird again when he has those 2 cars for the same $$$ . He loves driving the Prowler and is building a Daytona clone with a blown hemi. He don't like boats because I gave him a boat ride.... ;)

delawarerick
10-24-2005, 11:36 AM
Inline 6 its worth what the buyer is willing to pay. And I dont think 60k is unreal. Yea you might pass it up but the next guy might just buy it. It seems all of todays boats are the same. with splashes and the like buy a v or buy a tunnel yet the wing is what it is a piece of race history. Maybe as you get older and see something that was the beast of your time and is now gone you might have a different out look on this wing. There is a twister here in De at a dealership that is new never run what do you think this would bring?Rick

Bruster
10-24-2005, 04:49 PM
Please post a list of your "old stuff"....Either RM or I will be willing to give you less than you are asking.

T2x :p



I want in on this too. :eek:

willabee
10-25-2005, 08:29 AM
I bet Yogi Berra said this first:D
If someone that once owned it had ownership still they would technically own it...

willabee
10-25-2005, 02:59 PM
:) :) :)

Yea, I know what you meant.......I also know what you said. As testy as this thread was getting, I was hoping that we all would get a laugh out of the Yogi Berra shot.


don't be a smartass willabee you know what I meant.

T2x
10-26-2005, 02:56 PM
:) :) :)

Yea, I know what you meant.......I also know what you said. As testy as this thread was getting, I was hoping that we all would get a laugh out of the Yogi Berra shot.

When you come to the fork in the road............ take it.

T2x :D

T2x
10-26-2005, 02:57 PM
I said when I die...geeze guys hold your horses.

I could see the unrun twister getting really good money because it is unrun. Its hard to say but it would definately be in the $10,000 range if the Mark 75H that was made of parts went for that. See a boat and motor is different. The motor you can tell if its been run or not but the boat would be harder. From what Ive heard this guy is kind of sketchy.

Ok possibly the boat will go up in value but really I don't think it will go up to the prices cars are getting. I would consider now to be the time to get themost money because the people who saw it as a kid are adults and have the money to buy it now.

You guys have a legit argument here but I can see that going into a museum in the future. It was revolutionary for the time considering it was a breakthrough in speed but I really don't think they are going to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Cars from the 70's and such are widely available and widely loved. The richest people in the world love cars. I just don't think someone will become rich over the boat.

To me the boat isn't worth that money. Other people disagree so if its worth that much to you or someone out there then I guess its worth that money. I never saw the thing when I was a kid or such so to me its just an old boat. the stuff I like is the stuff I saw run as a kid such as the T1, 1500 XS, 650 XS, etc. etc. To me they are worth big money but in reality they are still old motors. I love them for what they are and don't plan to make money off of them

I guess I don't agree with an old boat fetching that much money but I guess I am wrong to say it won't.

Now I'm really wondering what it will fetch...

What would you give for Spencer Dunn's Molinari/T2x?

T2x :p

Bruster
10-26-2005, 05:13 PM
Hmm a good question.



I could make one phone call and have a mint T2X if I wanted to drop $10,000 but I find that a little too high.



A 10K offer for my Super B.P. would make me think, but not enough to sell. :D

Dave S
10-27-2005, 05:27 PM
We all want to buy that old race motor cheep but sell it high. :D If inlinesix don't want to buy it for a price he thinks is to high, someone else will buy it. Thats why Raceman has all those motors, he was buying when you all thought that was TOO much to pay. :o I will sell a motor or car if its going to a good home. :cool: And a fair price is what it takes in both partys eyes.

T2x
10-28-2005, 08:31 AM
Hmm a good question.

I really don't think any old boat is worth that much. When you start putting goofy figures like that up the price of making a mould and reproducing them seems pretty realistic. .

I don't think you are aware of the fact that Spencer's (and Mark's)....... (and my)..........old Molinaris...... were individually hand crafted............... in wood .............in Italy.......and each one was unique from any other.

Back to my Stradivarius comparison........ why not simply make an injection molded copy of a violin? By your standard...... it's just as good.

T2x

RBT
10-28-2005, 08:52 AM
Inline Six's father just restored Marks old Molinari for Mark... it was at Marks induction to the Canadain motorsports hall of fame.

RT

Old fiberglass
10-28-2005, 10:48 AM
TX2

If you cut a Stradivarius apart and replace/modify everything in it. Is it still an original Stradivarius ?? Or does it turn into a owner modified interpretation of the original ??

You should update your website - http://www.darrensoffshorephotos.homestead.com/thewing.html

T2x
10-29-2005, 10:52 AM
Inline Six's father just restored Marks old Molinari for Mark... it was at Marks induction to the Canadain motorsports hall of fame.

RT I saw that.....and the boat is irreplaceable...and beautifully done.

Mark75H
10-31-2005, 05:55 PM
the strat comparison isn't really vaild here still. If you wet bag a boat you loose A LOT if weight. Lighter is better. I bet a wing built with today's technology would run better because it is lighter. ....

But if you plan on driving it, I bet the wet bagged one would be faster.

You are assuming that a lighter Wing would be better. If you have never seen and touched one in person you might incorrectly assume that they are heavily constructed. This is not the case. They are already so light that they are dependent on their curved shape for strength. Think of an egg shell.

Fast Fred
10-31-2005, 06:20 PM
saw a shot of one it was flyin, the hull was totaly dry, flyin a set of twins :cool: :eek: looked like a kicka$$ ride, must got to pedel it to get her to come around :cool:

greg malesev
10-31-2005, 06:59 PM
We just got tore up pretty good by Wilma, including Teds shop. He might just be in a dealing mood. Somebody ought to step up to the plate. On second thought I could just as well end up with it, and I'm not even a go fast kinda guy. I could always use it as a dinghy on the Hatteras. Capt. Greg

T2x
02-11-2006, 12:56 PM
top......

MagicFloat
02-11-2006, 05:47 PM
I was just thinking today that this needed to go back up. I got the new issue of Hot Boat Mag today with the article on the Switzer reunion,interview with Kenny Kitson annd some photos of Bob Switzer,nice article and long overdue.At the risk of this being none of my business,wouldn't it be nice for Bob Valechovic to buy Ted's Wing?:)

4-MULA-V
02-17-2006, 04:02 PM
I have always wanted a wing since the days my dad raced boats in the late 50s and early 60s. He showed us pictures of them and said how bad he wanted one. He had a switzer shooting star witha 125 BP the same boat that set a record at lake Winnebago marathon driven by Mr. Hansen of Tiger marine in spicer MN.
A couple of things that one might consider in setting the value of these boats:
A boat like the one featured in hot boat with a known and famous race history would be worth more to most people. I saw the boat at the switzer rally this fall and talked to Kenny Kitson. I have wanted one for as long as I can remember and love the 60s and 70s boats and motors and have tryed to collect what I have for the pleasure it gives me to own a piece of boating history, not what I think I will get for it someday. I dont know if I could justify $50,000 for the kitson boat with Kenny in it. On the other hand I have tried to find several of the Race engines I grew up watching and wanting and it is very difficult to find anything complete, I have ended up buying all kinds of parts and pieces and probably paid too much, but hope to some day have something complete. Now if a person was to find a wing and restore it or have it restored then find 2 matching complete motors and restore them what would you have in it not to say anything about the time spent finding everything. What does that make a complete ready to run vintage but new boat worth???? I would lay down $50,000 for something I have always wanted and not have to spend the next ten years tracking down parts and pieces, but to be able to enjoy it now. Any body have a contact number on this now $60,000 boat to get the scoop from the horses mouth and see where he really is at. I would like to call him if possible, It would be nice to see what one would really be getting and what it would rally go for. Jerry

Mark75H
02-17-2006, 04:31 PM
I did not have any trouble finding a phone number for Ted Miller in Boynton Beach FL ... just looked it up on anywho.com. I bet the longer you talk the more it will cost. If you are serious you should go there with checkbook and pen in hand (might be able to drive the price down) .... if you talk - he thinks he has a live one on the line .... if you walk he's gonna be thinking about the $$$ he could have been spending

4-MULA-V
02-17-2006, 06:00 PM
Thanks for the advice Mark 75H, Look forward to hearing and seeing what all of you on here have in your collections. Jerry

xskid
02-18-2006, 12:38 AM
i recently got a mid and lower unit. i think its a b.p. it has an aluminum bullet that has a tip that looks like it screws off, the tip has a hole through it sideways. the propshaft has 15 splines. the exhaust comes out a big oval hole just above l/u. where would i get a prop for this? what type and dia. did they use ?

Raceman
02-18-2006, 04:36 AM
i recently got a mid and lower unit. i think its a b.p. it has an aluminum bullet that has a tip that looks like it screws off, the tip has a hole through it sideways. the propshaft has 15 splines. the exhaust comes out a big oval hole just above l/u. where would i get a prop for this? what type and dia. did they use ?

Most all of the Merc racin' gearcases had a tip similiar to what you're describing, but the large oval would distinguish it as a BP. There are basically 2 designs, The first one is the down studs type and was put on the first generation BP's, both 1000 and 1250's. The second one, the "up studs" was used on the Super BP's in 1000 and 1250 also. The up or down studs refers to the way the lower attaches to the mid section. All of these mids had full gearshifts unlike any other race type gearcase in this basic profile that Merc ever made. The downside is that they're EXTREMELY weak, troublesome, complex and impossible to find parts for. The good news is that a Twister/Twister1/T2 style adapter will put a Speedmaster or full gearshift inline 6 gearcase on that mid, assuming it's an up studs type, which a majority seem to be.

As far as the props for the BP lower go, the ran an over the hub type with a solid center (no rubber clutch), were usually around 12" in diameter and available in a wide range of pitches from upper teens to upper 20's if I remember right. They were all round ears and built in both 2 and 3 blade. Merc has one in their collection that they've shown at several boatshows in the last 5 or 10 years, but the have a 3 blade cleaver from a late model IV or VI Speedmaster on it for display, which of course wasn't even on the drawing board when those engines were current.

Raceman
02-18-2006, 04:46 AM
They would have to be light to go the speeds they were reaching. I'm just saying that for all round use in general the composite would be better.

It may not run faster, I'm just assuming it might because it is pretty light. I'm just keeping an open mind. :)

You have to also consider that within reasonable limits boats are more sensitive to weight when acceleration is the priority, rather than top speed. Many times a properly set up boat can carry hundreds of pounds of weight extra and still run very similar speed numbers.

Mark75H
02-18-2006, 10:05 AM
i recently got a mid and lower unit. i think its a b.p. it has an aluminum bullet that has a tip that looks like it screws off, the tip has a hole through it sideways. the propshaft has 15 splines. the exhaust comes out a big oval hole just above l/u. where would i get a prop for this? what type and dia. did they use ?

Another thing to consider is that BP's came in 4 different gear ratios. The ratio in the unit you have may not be appropriate for your boat. What boat? What gear ratio?

xskid
02-20-2006, 12:52 AM
it has up-studs. it has a full shifting gearcase with a ratio of 1:75 to 1. it is in excellent shape. where would the tuner be? it just has a big hole where the powerhead bolts on. there is no tuner in the mid like later inlines. it looks like the powerhead bolts right to the mid with no exhaust plate in between. i had a standard 1250 30 years ago, but cant remember what it looked like apart when i rebuilt it. i went to the dealer and saw the powerhead base gasket was the same as a standard 1250. i have a complete set of merc micro fiche, but i need a fiche view finder, anyone know of any?

xskid
02-20-2006, 01:03 AM
i dont know what boat that it will end up on,i need a powerhead, one that will fit ofcourse, unless i do a lot of machining and fabricating which i have the ability to do. i would like to build one of my n.o.s. J blocks and put on it, it will work, but if i do that, it may never fit a proper powerhead again. i will probably build something for show, and not use it much.

Fast Fred
02-20-2006, 12:52 PM
any way, any body got production numbers on the 18', or the prints for the hull,:cool:

and, cuz it's a wing, more has to do with how much lift the wing serface makes.

a 747 got to go at least 50tons, but still flys cuz the wing serface makes more than
50tons of lift.

Raceman
02-20-2006, 03:59 PM
XS, I'd put a 70 or 71 1350 powerhead on it. If you whack it for a 1500 you're right, hard to ever go back again. I've seen one done that way. There was an old Checkmate tunnel at Jasper about 4 or 5 yrs ago with a 1500XS powerhead adapted to a BP mid.

I can look at mine tomorrow, but I don't think the BP's or Super BP's had a tuner of any kind in the mid. If I remember the powerhead just dumped out in the housing.

willabee
02-20-2006, 04:09 PM
I can look at mine tomorrow, but I don't think the BP's or Super BP's had a tuner of any kind in the mid. If I remember the powerhead just dumped out in the housing.
I'll save you a trip, you're correct, just a gasket between the dsh and the powerhead.

2us70
02-20-2006, 04:24 PM
Anybody got an address for this wing? My main forn of exercise is cycling and I ride through Boynton Beach every couple of weeks and I would like to check it out sometime. I haven't seen a wing since Gene Lanham closed up shop and went to Colorado.

Fast Fred
02-21-2006, 07:26 AM
ok then thare was 40 18' made:cool:

Raceman
02-21-2006, 08:47 AM
Anybody got an address for this wing? My main forn of exercise is cycling and I ride through Boynton Beach every couple of weeks and I would like to check it out sometime. I haven't seen a wing since Gene Lanham closed up shop and went to Colorado.

No address, but it should be in the phone book............Ted Miller, aka: Ted's Marine, Boynton Beach.

Mark75H
02-21-2006, 09:11 AM
Ted's Marine Service
800 Northeast 3rd Street

Mark75H
02-21-2006, 09:13 AM
ok then thare was 40 18' made:cool: Ted's boat is a 20

xskid
02-22-2006, 12:08 AM
sorry about all the bp talk on this thread, but i needed some info. it would make sense that mine is a super bp mid. and that would explain why there is no exhaust plate or tuner because on a super the exhaust goes out the stacks, ......ofcourse.

Mark75H
02-22-2006, 07:00 AM
Stacks were optional, there just wasn't a tuner.

Raceman
02-22-2006, 09:56 AM
I'll go one farther than what Sam said...... I've been told by several people who raced back then that the stacks were not factory installed on any engine sold to privateer racers or the public. I don't know if it's true, but it's a persistent rumor.

For the record, the std BP which preceeded the Super BP didn't have a tuner either.

2us70
02-28-2006, 05:06 PM
I stoped in at Ted's today and boy does he have some neat old stuff. The wing is back in a corner under a cover and it is not accessable but it is still there. He told me it has never been run. Ted's shop is just full of old inline Mercury motors and related stuff. He's got a Magnolia cat in there that looks no more than 5 or 6 years old and we all know they haven't built those boats for 40 years. I enjoyed talking with him since he goes back even further than most of us.

smirnoff
02-28-2006, 06:30 PM
Somebody mentioned Ted wants to move (sell) all of his outboard racing iron -- anyone know if this is true?:confused:

~Bill

Mark75H
02-28-2006, 07:17 PM
I'm sure he does want to sell all of it .... at his price :)

lilabner
02-28-2006, 07:28 PM
Exception to your rule..the only one I know of though..

Mark75H
02-28-2006, 07:36 PM
Butch, I think Raceman meant late 60's & early 70's motors

Raceman
02-28-2006, 08:23 PM
Butch, I think Raceman meant late 60's & early 70's motors

Yep, I was referrin' to the type stacks that were used on the BP's and 1350's, and that's second hand information at best.

willabee
03-01-2006, 10:07 AM
I'll go one farther than what Sam said...... I've been told by several people who raced back then that the stacks were not factory installed on any engine sold to privateer racers or the public. I don't know if it's true, but it's a persistent rumor.


Raceman, that was the policy.......Merc did not install stacker kits on engines owned by privateers. They could call and get assistance over the phone, but they had to install the kits themselves. When Hi-Performance opened in 1973, they would have installed them for a fee, but by then stackers were a thing of the past. Most people didn't know that they could have sent their powerhead to Hi-Perf and had it blueprinted.

2us70
03-01-2006, 02:32 PM
Was blueprinting available for all OPC motors or just for the Unlimited class motors? Also what was the cost? I eventually learned how to make good power from the 44ci 50s, the 3 cyl 65s and the 4 cyl 85s but it would have been a lot easier to just send Mercury the motor and let them do it.

MN4V
03-01-2006, 03:46 PM
Was blueprinting available for all OPC motors or just for the Unlimited class motors? Also what was the cost?

My brother Greg had it done to his 150 for Sport J in 1973 for maybe around $300 or $400 when he bought his new motor.
This the same motor that my brother Allen used in FJ on his orange and white Hydrostream #392.
Mark N

willabee
03-01-2006, 03:46 PM
Was blueprinting available for all OPC motors or just for the Unlimited class motors? Also what was the cost?
It was only done on the 1250 and 1350 and was available for the 1400, although I don't recall anyone sending a 1400. It was not advertised, we would just be talking to people at the race sites. When someone would say they would like to have something to beat the fast guy on their lake, we would offer that service. I don't recall the cost, bit it was pretty reasonable and you ended up with a powerhead that was essentially new and ran very well. I left in 75 and don't know how long they continued to offer that program.

2us70
03-01-2006, 05:50 PM
That's ok I ran out of money to race boats on in 76.

delawarerick
03-01-2006, 05:56 PM
Was the magnolia cat equipped with 2 110 mercs with 2 blade stainless props? Only reason I ask is that one showed up at the rumble. It was an older man (like me) and it ran unbelievably. I think the cat was yellow and white. Thanks Rick

xskid
03-02-2006, 12:07 AM
i think the boat with twin 110 ss that was at the rumble belongs to a guy that lives in ohio. i met him at jasper last fall, his name is bill i believe.

2us70
03-02-2006, 06:17 PM
The Magnolia I saw Tuesday is black and white with no motors on it right now.

moparbarn
12-28-2006, 01:24 PM
i worked for dave cgaig at sktway marine for a short time in 70 or 71. i clearly remember stackers coming in in boxes on two separate occasions. pipes in the crate, just not bolted on. and 1 bp. all three were sold over the counter. with a bill of sale. i know this for a fact. i bolted the stacks on one and set all three on stands.2 were spoken for, ie ordered for a person. one was in the showroom for about 2 months. when it sold, i wrote the receipt, and i don't know the name-probably didn't recognize then either.
yes, stacks were shipped with motors, just not installed-due to packaging/shipping issues? and, yes, they went to privateers

AIRWALK

willabee
01-30-2007, 02:44 PM
i worked for dave cgaig at sktway marine for a short time in 70 or 71. i clearly remember stackers coming in in boxes on two separate occasions. pipes in the crate yes, stacks were shipped with motors, just not installed-due to packaging/shipping issues? and, yes, they went to privateers AIRWALK

No, Merc did not install stacker kits on engines owned "privateers".....that was the original question. Dave Craig may have been able to call someone who was able to get a couple of stackers sent to him, I'm sure he had the connections to make that happen. But that event doesn't mean that Merc built stacker powerheads and sold them to the public. I'm wondering what group would have done that for him.....I sure don't think they came from Racing, maybe someone at Plt.6 (two cycle R&D) did him a favor.

lilabner
01-30-2007, 08:11 PM
Back when I worked for Dave, 60-61, I don't think they had a Mercury Racing..They had THE LAKE..and that is where the "stuff" came from, courtesy of Mr K..or Joe Anderson..George Thompson..or who ever answered the phone that liked you and had some pull..Dave Craig had THE PULL..
Mr K. was usually there when ever we went to the Lake..

T2x
02-06-2007, 09:10 AM
i worked for dave cgaig at sktway marine for a short time in 70 or 71. i clearly remember stackers coming in in boxes on two separate occasions. pipes in the crate, just not bolted on. and 1 bp. due to packaging/shipping issues? and, yes, they went to privateers AIRWALK

Well there ya go.... 70'-'71 was after the stackers and BP's were replaced by the Twisters. These were probably old factory race engines,,,reboxed and sent to Skyway.

your thoughts Willabee?

T2x

moparbarn
02-06-2007, 10:00 AM
Well there ya go.... 70'-'71 was after the stackers and BP's were replaced by the Twisters. These were probably old factory race engines,,,reboxed and sent to Skyway.

your thoughts Willabee?

T2x
that could be it. all three of these motors had receipts written on them. as in sold over the counter on a skyway marine receipt and cash collected. i want to remember that the BP went to puerto rico, and came back a matter of weeks later with some cylinders seized due to detonation. the theory in the shop was that the rev limiter had been disconnected and the motor used offshore. i don't think these would have been sold over the counter unless they were 'outdated/last years model'. it had to have been 70 when i worked for dave, by 71, i was at bob brown's biscayne marine-learning all the reasons i didn't want a johnrude.

AIRWALK

Jeff_G
02-06-2007, 10:41 AM
What rev limiter? I wasn't aware they had one. ??

willabee
02-06-2007, 01:10 PM
Well there ya go.... 70'-'71 was after the stackers and BP's were replaced by the Twisters. These were probably old factory race engines,,,reboxed and sent to Skyway.....your thoughts Willabee? T2x

That's pretty much what I thought when moparbarn said he saw a couple arrive at Skyway.....just wanted to give his statement the benefit of the doubt by suggesting that someone may have done Craig a favor (like lilabner said, he did have pull). At that point in time, we very well could have had a few new stackers sitting on some rack at Racing and just shipped them to the Lake. However, I have no idea where a new BP would have come from at that late date.

Rev limiting switch boxes on the BP.....6800 or 7000 rpm I believe was original equipment. I remember the early two blade props were frequently throwing blades and we put a 1250 on a beat-up Hustler and took it to the Fond du lac boathouse (it was very cold and we needed some open water). We hung it in a slip with the gearcase just deep enough to get water, nose up against the concrete wall and ran new props on it until they would fail. That thing made a heck of a racket running flat-out inside that building and when it threw a blade, the noise was even louder as the revs banged up against the switch box.

I remember it so well because one of the days we were running these tests was a Sunday, and I was there by myself. I had already broken three or four props that morning and was installing a new one when a VOICE said on to me "What the hell are you doing?" I turned to see who had just startled the living sh-t out of me and immediately replied "Mr. Kiekhaefer, we have a prop problem and I am running some new designs to see if a fix has been found." He said that he was sure that this was very important, but told me he had already been blamed for disrupting early church service (I told you it was loud) and didn't want want to catch any heat for the next one. He told me to wrap it up for the day and to start again Monday. I was out of there almost as quickly as he was :).

lilabner
02-06-2007, 09:46 PM
Why guess..? Come to Mt Dora and ask the man himself..I'm taking Dave and his wife Trish, and we are meeting Carl and Jeanne Moesly..Carl saved Dave's life at a race at Miami Outboard Club once when Dave was thrown out of his Powercat and it ran over him..He is also one of the very few to drive at least four wooden Wings..and Carl's SeaCrafts are ledgendary..We will be there Friday and Saturday..a lot of racing history here..

moparbarn
02-07-2007, 08:02 AM
willabee, i DO appreciate your 'benefit of the doubt', but i don't make any statements unless i am sure of what i am saying. if i'm in doubt, i say so, or phrase it as a question. the motors i have mentionede were uncrated by me. i mounted the stacks on one, helped load the other stacker in a dark (maroon?) chevy el camino. motors appeared new, no scratches or missing paint on transom bracket mount holes or lower units. may have been repainted, didn't really look that hard for stuff like that. had the y pipes mounted, couldn't look at cylinders or pistons. most of you guys know way more than i do about this stuff. i was a teenager watching all this unfold around me. was in touch with a lot of the miami shores/n. miami racing scene in the 60's, because people i lived near or grew up with were involved. i will openly admit i didn't race, just an avid fan with some minor involvment. i am just trying to help add some pieces to this puzzle we are all trying to put into place. i am not taking any offense from your comment, just wanted to clarify what i saw. as a teenager we used to go to donzi and magnum by boat, just to look around. they knew we weren't buyers, but as long as we didn't cause any issues, they didn't seem to mind. we ( doug grammes, jimmy scheaffer and i) were allowed pretty much total access to the back/shop and yards. saw a lot of amazing stuff, most of which didn't mean a lot until i have read some of the threads here on s&f. thanx to everyone for a great site that is educating me as much as allowing me to reconnect with a period in my life that i will never forget.

AIRWALK

willabee
02-07-2007, 10:59 AM
willabee, i DO appreciate your 'benefit of the doubt', but i don't make any statements unless i am sure of what i am saying. i am not taking any offense from your comment, just wanted to clarify what i saw. AIRWALK

Glad you didn't take offense, none was intended. Here's the issue......

Post #106 Raceman is asking if anyone can confirm a "rumor" that the factory did not install stacks on engines for privateers. Post #113 I confirmed that "rumor"..... then on Post #121 you said I was wrong because of what you saw at Skyway. You said "and, yes, they went to privateers."....I took a little offense to that ;).

Well, I'm not wrong, Merc did not supply "privateers" stacked engines. However, I'm sure you saw stackers at Skyway. Rather than say what you saw was obsolete and probably rebuilt, I tried to give your statement a little boost by saying that maybe Dave Craig used his influence to get something that others could not obtain.

Maybe could have said it better, hope this cleared the air.....

Mark75H
02-07-2007, 11:09 AM
Very well put - that is what I understood the posts to mean.

I hope everyone else did too :)

moparbarn
02-07-2007, 01:41 PM
i saw what i saw. i stated i my original post the time frame i was dealing with. i'm sure that when the motors in question were current and competetive, they were not for sale to the 'public'. from what i understand here on s&f mercury retained ownership of race motors, and "loaned' them to who they chose. is this basically correct? i could understand dave having the pull to get the motors, but not to sell them outright-not while mercury was racing them. in that respect, i totally agree with you. but, by 1970, if mercury wasn't using them, i can better understand the motors being sold off. still not sure about used or rebuilt. did mercury repaint the entire powerhead-bolts and all- after an overhaul? i want to say the 1 stacker and the bp that weren't picked up immediately were very clean. didn't really appear to have been used. not 100% on this, wasn't looking for signs of use, they came out of mercury boxes and looked good, no obvious signs of use, wrench marks or scratches/scrapes from having been on a boat. when i disagreed with you, i wasn't trying to offend anybody, i was only stating what i had seen with my own eyes, and done with my own hands. this was intended to be added information, not a doubt or dispute. but i do apologize for any offense perceived, it was not intended as that. just keep talking about what you remember, all of you, i enjoy reading the stories and learning from this site.

AIRWALK

Mark75H
02-07-2007, 03:11 PM
i'm sure that when the motors in question were current and competetive, they were not for sale to the 'public'. from what i understand here on s&f mercury retained ownership of race motors, and "loaned' them to who they chose. is this basically correct? i could understand dave having the pull to get the motors, but not to sell them outright-not while mercury was racing them. in that respect, i totally agree with you. but, by 1970, if mercury wasn't using them, i can better understand the motors being sold off.

No, you are stuck a little too deep in the details. In 1968 and 69 Merc made and sold race motors to independent teams/drivers. For some reason in 1970 and early 71 they only sold loose parts and picked up again selling whole race motors to independent teams & drivers in late 1971. In 1970 they made a 1970 version of the current motor as a racer (sort of) but did not sell this version to private teams; they only raced it as a factory team motor. Left over and returned 1969 motors could have been sold to private teams in 1970 if there were any to be had and loose parts that could be made into 1970 race motors... this is what the other guys are trying to say.