3 litre wolf efi crankcase injected 3 litre build

[mrcrsr]

i'm in the process of putting together another 3 litre for the skater, the old one has 350 hours on it(the original wolf engine that i built) and is getting tired, i built that one figuring i was going to blow it up several times during the making of the fuel and spark maps and never did. that engine had 1700 hours on it when i ported and built it, basically i just honed it and put it back together w/ fresh rings and new bearings, so that engine owes me nothing! here's a pic of that engine http://i54.tinypic.com/2uxwtud.jpg

[mrcrsr]

that engine pushed my hydrostream virage stg3 to 109, and was beginning to die when it went on my 21 skater but still managed to run 99.9 mph. i had to build the wiring harness and fuel and spark maps, and ran it for 6 hours on a k&o propshaft dyno(and 60 gallons of fuel on the dyno) here's a pic of the wolf ecu and harness, i'm not even using half the functions of the wolf. http://i56.tinypic.com/261yh7c.jpg

[mrcrsr]

i also used an omc test wheel to help build the curves, here's some video View My Video (http://tinypic.com/m/e5o6jp/2)

[mrcrsr]

i tried initially to run gm ls series coils because they have the ignition drivers built in(so the ecu doesn't see high amperage, kind of like an electronic relay of sorts) but they didn't work, the engine would start to break up around 4500 rpm or so. the problem was they were never designed to do that, it would be like turning a v8 at 9k rpm. i ended up using optimax drivers/coils- the same ones used on an 01 300x. heres a pic of the ls coils http://i56.tinypic.com/6fziqb.jpg

[mrcrsr]

the wiring harnesses are built from tefzel shielded aviation wire. i use gm weatherpack connectors and keep the ecu in the boat. the new engine started life as a 03 300x, i'm using the later style multi strike coils- they come on later 300x engines and most outboards after '04- supposedly they multi fire below 2k rpm. here's a pic of the new engine in mockup state- had to build the throttle linkage. i machined a set of injector bungs and welded them into the front half, i also cut up a 260 air horn and mated it up to the 3 litre intake flange, the butterfly is 7 mm larger, and i built a mount to install the 3 litre tps on the horn that will be driven of the throttle shaft. i'm running one of our 1" spacers made of composite, along w/ a custom reed plate. i have a ton more pics, but i have to load them up to tiny pic. http://i50.tinypic.com/2afmm2q.jpg

[PanRonnie]

subscribed
but wat do you think of this body ?
you could even add a idle valve :cheers:

[mrcrsr]

ronnie, is that throttle body assy off an etec? my machinist had the same idea, i ended up going w/ the horn, i can ck the map sensor readings and see if there is any vacuum at wot. getting ready to assemble the short block today.

[PanRonnie]

yes it is 4 months ago there was a 300 intake on sale on ebay
on boats.net i think they charge $600+ for an assembly
also keep an eye on your sparkplugs
when i was running my S80 on the dyno my center sparkplugs seemed white as opposed to the others
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Zj7aO2DFvE8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

i set my center injectors slightly richer now
strange as the original 849849 map does not compensate for this
also i,m going to rework my spacerplate for a radius
http://home.tiscali.nl/ronniestoys/Data/Bellmouth.zip
after reading this
kee the pictures coming :rolleyes:

[baja200merk]

subscribed :D

[Stitch King]

Hey....you had me take a blood oath not to talk about this project! At least that's one less secret I need to keep. :)

This looks bad ass. :D

[timmc6]

great looking project charlie keep us informed,tim:cheers:

[Stitch King]

i can ck the map sensor readings and see if there is any vacuum at wot

Charlie, If I remember my old data logs correctly vacuum disappeared after the throttle blades were opened even a small amount (0.100") from their Idle setting.

Have you considered that Old Wolfie can control an IAC Valve? An IAC, MAF and a Ducted Cold Air intake would be really trick.

Speaking of cold air where is your IAT sensor going to be?

[Stitch King]

i set my center injectors slightly richer now


I remember Wayne Taylor talking about this on center horn motors. He suspected that because the velocity stack pointed right at those cylinders they got more air than the others.

[Dave Strong]

Subscibed.

Dave

[motorheadbishop]

Subscribed....
It's gotta make more HP...
I dont think its gotta choice but to scream now....:thumbsup:

[Capt.Insane-o]

ronnie, is that throttle body assy off an etec? my machinist had the same idea, i ended up going w/ the horn, i can ck the map sensor readings and see if there is any vacuum at wot. getting ready to assemble the short block today.


I tried the horn on my motor, the air flow is too disrupted to 1-2 and 5-6. It ran, but it was obvious that the center horn is a problem. Going back to the down draft was a step in the right direction. But I am still in the infancy of test and tune and in the need of a custom set of rods. I bought a laser style svs off of e-bay awhile back and this will probably be my final choice of intake after some modification. The bottom end and mid range puts a 2.5 to shame, I can't wait to get a grip on the rest of it. I was pondering a dual horn set up as well, but they would probably have top be restricted down some.

[Stitch King]

Lyn, On your Center Horn setup were you able to adjust the pulse width of the individual injectors like Charlie is be able to do with the V500 ECU?

[RBT]

subscribed,
AWESOME!

[native2]

Very cool.... Subscribed.

[Capt.Insane-o]

Lyn, On your Center Horn setup were you able to adjust the pulse width of the individual injectors like Charlie is be able to do with the V500 ECU?

Just by the pair.. the problem is'nt fuel, it's air. If you look at a 2.5 horn it is has a contured relief that allows a smoother path to the upper and lower cylinders. I basically did the same thing sawing off an old horn and used an old intake cover for the top of the plenum. It ran, but it just was'nt right. The new style down draft intake was much better, but I can't leave well enough alone yet lol. I know the Wolf has tremendous tuning variations but there is still a problem, so to speak. Just saying.

It's been a fun motor to build, even having to saw the exhaust cover off and guess at a chest profile. With the 3.2 rotating assy it's been far less expensive than some of my 2.5+ projects. Hopefully this winter I can have a set of rods made and wrap it up. BTW I'm using an ADI set up and an older PCU. Charlie is on the right path with the Wolf system tho for sure.

[mrcrsr]

i can individually adjust spark timing and fuel on each cylinder. as far as air flow issues, i went off alot of what i learned over the years w/ the 2.4's and 2.5's. when i welded the horn assy on i welded up the 90 degree turn the horn makes when it meets the plenum, and then cut into it from the inside, if you look straight into the horn you now can see cyls 2 and 5 in addition to 3 and 4. i also did a steep backcut to the reed plate, and cut down the dividers between 5 and 6 and 1 and 2, so hopefully this helps. the 3 liter factory plenum is a compromise at best, cyls 1 and 2 get starved for air(air comes in the throttle body tube, goes down, makes a "u" turn and then a 90 deg turn, and the bottom cyls have to deal w/ pulsation. in my exsisting fuel curves i'm pulling some fuel out of 1 and 2, which confirms this. 5 and 6 still get more fuel then 3 and 4 and probably has to do w/ the exhaust chest scavenging. i also pull a couple of degrees of timing from 5 and 6. i also compensated for the bank to bank differences in the software, my old engine was actually pretty good on fuel, even w/ the port timing it had, i could get 3.5 mpg on both boats when the motor was good, i pulled a compression on it and when built it was 155, its now down to the 120's, did a leakdown on 1 cylinder and it came back at 20%! that thing is done

[mrcrsr]

ken, interesting that you mention the maf- isn't that a big impediment to airflow w/ all the ducting required, not to mention how do you calibrate it? the wolf will run one, but i thought you needed to know ve accurately to set it up? the dyno i'm using is simple and just allows me to load the engine, it has no electronic data features. as far as the map sensor, i calibrated it off the wolfs built in sensor, and it has been pretty much useless to use in a data input sense, as it doesn't vary all that much. i'd like to know how merc does it, obviously it can be made to work. when setting up the sensor you measure the output voltage(0-5 volts) over vacuum and input that into the calibration tables. this time around i was going to just connect the voltmeter to it and watch the voltage it puts out at different rpm points, and use that to input into the calibration table, i'm thinking if i do it this way i can make it a usable sensor, any thoughts? i have a bunch of runtime data logged i'd like to put up, but you can't play it without the wolf software, maybe i can video the laptop screen and then post the video?

[mrcrsr]

I tried the horn on my motor, the air flow is too disrupted to 1-2 and 5-6. It ran, but it was obvious that the center horn is a problem. Going back to the down draft was a step in the right direction. But I am still in the infancy of test and tune and in the need of a custom set of rods. I bought a laser style svs off of e-bay awhile back and this will probably be my final choice of intake after some modification. The bottom end and mid range puts a 2.5 to shame, I can't wait to get a grip on the rest of it. I was pondering a dual horn set up as well, but they would probably have top be restricted down some.
the rods are the weakest point of this whole thing, i tried to keep everything as lite as possible, i was able to save 50 grams just by weighing all the rods i have here(50+) and came up w/ a set that were 50 grams less each. i also put the pistons in the mill, cut the skirts where they were blocking the ports at the bottom of the cyls and litened them as well and took off another 13 grams/ piston. the flywheel i took off 2.5 lbs, plus i had to do some machinework on it and get rid of the 60-6 reluctor wheel, i installed the older style 3 liter reluctor ring on it, as its easier to work w/ compared to the later style flywheel

[Stitch King]

You are right setting up the MAF would be difficult. I forgot that there are no O2 sensors to tell you what's coming out the other side so yes measuring the incoming air would be pointless.

On the MAP sensor, if I remember correctly it was only used as a reference to let the ECU know the engine was at idle since vacuum is pretty much only made at idle. I believe that Merc used it as a backup in case of a TPS failure. In the event of a TPS fail, the ECu would reference the MAP and allow the engine to operate in a limp home set of parameters.

[That's Right]

Hell Yeah !!!!!!!!! Subscribed :thumbsup:

[mrcrsr]

ken, it still doesn't explain how merc used a map sensor as a tps sensor of sorts to give the ecu throttle position info- one of the biggest tuning issues i've had is planing off- the motor cavitates but yet is at 6500 rpm wot- yet the ecu thinks its under full load-so the engine is rich and blubbery at that point and its something i've lived with, but am going to try and fix this time around

[baja200merk]

On the MAP sensor, if I remember correctly it was only used as a reference to let the ECU know the engine was at idle since vacuum is pretty much only made at idle.
That makes sense cause they do go full rich and smoke like a freight train when the little tube gets plugged.

Charlie- Your not running EGT probes in every cyl yet? I know its not a very cheap option but wont the wolf log them also? You could rifle 6 studs on the mill so that would save a few bucks. I know Sam and Bush swear by it (though they are not tuning a lake motor). Cool project, I have always wanted to crank case inject a 3.3 e-tec front half. Sam did recently and its mean and thats with old school SDS injection (non-sequential). Its only money :p

[PanRonnie]

had no problem running MAP as load sensing
had to switch over as my self installed TPS sensor went bad
redo the fuel map
charlie is that an external map sensor on factory site,s they tend to have calibration sheets
try googling the part number will take some time to sift through but you can get lucky
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/WHXl9hI1bj4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Liberator*21]

ken, it still doesn't explain how merc used a map sensor as a tps sensor of sorts to give the ecu throttle position info- one of the biggest tuning issues i've had is planing off- the motor cavitates but yet is at 6500 rpm wot- yet the ecu thinks its under full load-so the engine is rich and blubbery at that point and its something i've lived with, but am going to try and fix this time around


Charlie,
Very, very nice work, it looks great. I did remember that there was mention in the Merc manual somewhere that the MAP sensor would take over in case of a TPS failure, I'll see if I can find that again. I think the MAP & Air Temp sensor worked hand in hand in case of a TPS failure.....Obviously you won't be running all out, but I think the intent was to allow you to get back to port.

[mrcrsr]

here's a video of the datalog so you can see what the map sensor is doing, internal and external are hooked up, the external is the factory sensor mounted on the top of the plenum that a 300x would use, internal is built into the wolf View My Video (http://tinypic.com/m/fp86eo/2)

[mrcrsr]

here's a pic of the modified flywheel. we machined off the late style 60-6 reluctor ring, cut the old style reluctor ring off a flywheel and did a .006 interference fit. its easier to work w/ this style tooth pattern for the computer. while we were at it we took 2.5 lbs off the late style flywheel. thanks for your help charly!:D http://i49.tinypic.com/x2tesj.jpg

[mrcrsr]

here's a shot of the assembled long block, gary, the head studs are sweet! http://i45.tinypic.com/i267oo.jpg

[Liberator*21]

Glad you like the Stud Kit, I think it's definatly better than some of the other kits available that I've seen and it's cheaper too, better and cheaper that's the ticket !!!!. The build is look'n good Charlie...:D.

I'm itch'n to get back to building mine as well. I've decided to put the 300x heads back on through break-in, don't know if I'll go back to the billet heads or not after break-in is completed, I'm sorta gun shy right now with still not being able to say what the cause was 100%....

[Frank Molé]

great stuff guys.......................:thumbsup:

[baja200merk]

Charlie your supposed to hack the chest off before you assemble it :p :D :D

Looks great, im sure it smells like 400hp ;)

I love seeing guys modding these fishing motors :thumbsup:

[Chaz]

here's a pic of the modified flywheel. we machined off the late style 60-6 reluctor ring, cut the old style reluctor ring off a flywheel and did a .006 interference fit. its easier to work w/ this style tooth pattern for the computer. while we were at it we took 2.5 lbs off the late style flywheel. thanks for your help charly!:D http://i49.tinypic.com/x2tesj.jpg


Your Welcome ... and Thank You for giving credit, where credit is due :thumbsup:

[Liberator*21]

This is the kinda stuff that makes you want to buy machine tools, isn't that right Charlie......lol. :iagree: Nice job on the fly wheel mod to both of you. Should have sent it to me for getting it degree'd while I still had the set up on the mill, I'd say make that a winter project but then again you guys really don't have a "put the boat in storage winter" like the rest of us........;).

[Tom Foley]

Your Welcome ... and Thank You for giving credit, where credit is due :thumbsup:

Chaz , what ever happened to the thread on your engine build ? It seemed to just disappear ?

You guys are really creative with all you are doing with these engines ! Keep up the good work both of you !!

[mrcrsr]

ronnie, merc uses a delco map sensor, it appears to be the same one as used on cars. i have a couple of different ones to try this time around, and i may justt calibrate it on the running engine at different rpm/load points to see if it is more accurate this way. got the long block done last nite, merc sux w/ the rubber coated reed cages, already had to buy 2 of them at a cost of 200/ea. i ended up taking the rubber off 2 of the cages and lapped them flat- the ones without the rubber actually seem to seal better!! go figure

[mrcrsr]

gary, between you and charly i learn alot about the machine work aspect of this whole thing, its been years since i played w/ lathes and mills, so thank you both for all your help!

[Chaz]

This is the kinda stuff that makes you want to buy machine tools, isn't that right Charlie......lol. :iagree: Nice job on the fly wheel mod to both of you. Should have sent it to me for getting it degree'd while I still had the set up on the mill, I'd say make that a winter project but then again you guys really don't have a "put the boat in storage winter" like the rest of us........;).

Now Gary, you should know I have three roto-tables. One that takes two people to lift, LOL One that sines 90* and another thats just user friendly... and angle brackets to stand each one on end ... even a 90* spindle drive to really make things complicated ... :eek: :D


Tom Foley
Chaz , what ever happened to the thread on your engine build ? It seemed to just disappear ?

You guys are really creative with all you are doing with these engines ! Keep up the good work both of you !!

Tom, I'm gonna walk as softly as I can here.
I took what I thought was a dorment section of this site, to show the modifications that I have been doing to the motors for my 25' Motion. None of it was really anything new, just stuff that I have been doing to my race car motors for years. I wasnt looking to step on anyones toes, steal buisness or disrespect any vendors on this site. Perhaps I went about it the wrong way. My intention when I posted my build, and asked Gary and Charlie to post theirs in this area, was to have a 3.0L section, for us guys who love the big block Mercs to hang out,and hopefully others would join in with theirs. Nothing more, nothing less. The board admin chose to see it as encroaching on paying members domain. I understand and respect his decision for pulling my threads. My sincere apoligies if I offended anyone.
This thread is the "other Charlie's" :p and I dont want to goober it up with board politics, we got enough of that on TV .. :cool: Sooooo......


mrcrsr
gary, between you and charly i learn alot about the machine work aspect of this whole thing, its been years since i played w/ lathes and mills, so thank you both for all your help!

Thats a two way street my brother.
When my motorhome generator went kaput, you were the first one there to help ... err .. I meen , fix the problem .. Thank You :thumbsup:

[PanRonnie]

charly i can take a look if you send me your latest engine file !
if you can also give me the part number i can see wat i can dig up

[Dave Strong]

Tom, I'm gonna walk as softly as I can here.
I took what I thought was a dorment section of this site, to show the modifications that I have been doing to the motors for my 25' Motion. None of it was really anything new, just stuff that I have been doing to my race car motors for years. I wasnt looking to step on anyones toes, steal buisness or disrespect any vendors on this site. Perhaps I went about it the wrong way. My intention when I posted my build, and asked Gary and Charlie to post theirs in this area, was to have a 3.0L section, for us guys who love the big block Mercs to hang out,and hopefully others would join in with theirs. Nothing more, nothing less. The board admin chose to see it as encroaching on paying members domain. I understand and respect his decision for pulling my threads. My sincere apoligies if I offended anyone.
This thread is the "other Charlie's" :p and I dont want to goober it up with board politics, we got enough of that on TV .. :cool: Sooooo......

Don't see how you could offend any one your were just posting some cool stuff. Its allways cool to see peoples builds step by step. JMO

Dave

[Liberator*21]

Dave,

Charlie, Chaz & I agreed that it would benefit the 3L folks to have a place called "Home", but it was obviously taken down. I made mention of the 3L stud kits I was building and it too was shut down because another vendor complained so I had to up my standing to Supporting Member in order to sell my Stud Kits.......There's not much info available for 3L owners and the total intent was to attempt to provide as much info as we could share and since 99% of it was Fab work, it seemed proper to put it in that section. Like Chaz said, it was all done with the best intension of sharing what we've done and know for the rest of the 3L community.

[mrcrsr]

i figured this was considered fabrication(most of it) so i posted it here,its something different so it does fit the description. got everything pretty much on the engine yesterday, took awhile to find/scrounge up hardware, i had an opti i took apart awhile ago, so i had to find all the alternator bracketry, bolts, etc. then, the new coils didn't fit the old style 3 litre coil bracket, so that took a couple of hours. amazing how nothing goes quickly or easily.

[mrcrsr]

had to put a slot in the butterfly throttle shaft for the tps coupling, ended up using an older style 3 litre tps, i have a stockpile of them http://i45.tinypic.com/sqgtgg.jpg

[mrcrsr]

i didn't like the internal passage size of the 300 promax fuel rail, it was smaller then 1/4", so i bored it out to 5/16", i also milled off the return passage in the rail to get more clearance for the throttle linkage, and bushed the aluminum throttle connector end. http://i49.tinypic.com/m8crdj.jpg

[Tom Foley]

Lookin good Charlie !! Ready in 2 weeks or what ??

[Liberator*21]

Now Gary, you should know I have three roto-tables. One that takes two people to lift, LOL One that sines 90* and another thats just user friendly... and angle brackets to stand each one on end ... even a 90* spindle drive to really make things complicated ... :eek: :D

Chaz,

Always like to hear what cha got to work with...........TOOLS, can't get enough of them to play with..........LOL !!!!!!


***************************************************************************************************


Charlie,

Look'n real good my man, won't be long till it see's "Fire in The Hole" and starts to breath. Great work !!!!!!

[Capt.Insane-o]

Nice :)

[garyfdny]

Sweet!!

i didn't like the internal passage size of the 300 promax fuel rail, it was smaller then 1/4", so i bored it out to 5/16", i also milled off the return passage in the rail to get more clearance for the throttle linkage, and bushed the aluminum throttle connector end. http://i49.tinypic.com/m8crdj.jpg

[EFIGUY12]

Interesting work gentlemen!

[mrcrsr]

thanks guys! tom, i'll probably take captn steve's trick if this isn't done, it still has to be tuned, but i have to pull the heads on steve's engine due to some milling errors by the person i purchased 2 sets of heads from, the heads on my old motor were leaking in 4 and 6, and were not milled straight- hence the o ring groove depths have a .010 variance side to side, oh well. ronnie, i have 2 map sensors to choose from, wondering which would be more sensitive- the older 3 litre style,denso 825762. the other sensor is gm based, used on optimax and 300x and many gm vehicles, pn 16232443, or 6232(numbers on sensor)has a square trademark/manufacturer symbol on it, looks like a box and may say ce in it

[mrcrsr]

late 3 litre/opti/gm map sensor http://i48.tinypic.com/2qi2zbl.jpg

[mrcrsr]

earlier 3 litre sensor http://i50.tinypic.com/2vkgsiv.jpg

[opsdave]

Looks good Charlie! Can't wait to hear how it runs.

[PanRonnie]

the beste sofar if i can find some original data sheets iw ill post them !

[Chaz]

Chaz,

Always like to hear what cha got to work with...........TOOLS, can't get enough of them to play with..........LOL !!!!!!



I feel lucky to be part of a little group of guys who work within the automotive rebuilding industry, or part of that little model rocket club we have just up the street at the cape .... ;) . Least I forget, the one who gets paid to throw a chicken or a hand full of 1/4 x 28 nuts in a perfectly good running turbo fan and then take a month to analize what happened to the blades ... now thats a job with a lot of "stress" .... :rolleyes:
Cuz no one man has everything under one roof ... :thumbsup:

[Liberator*21]

I feel lucky to be part of a little group of guys who work within the automotive rebuilding industry, or part of that little model rocket club we have just up the street at the cape .... ;) . Least I forget, the one who gets paid to throw a chicken or a hand full of 1/4 x 28 nuts in a perfectly good running turbo fan and then take a month to analize what happened to the blades ... now thats a job with a lot of "stress" .... :rolleyes:
Cuz no one man has everything under one roof ... :thumbsup:

LMAO......seems we have something in common...Jets. I'm a retired Engineer of way to many years at General Electric Aviation, Military & Commerical Jet Engine Division, and I've been in the test cell and have seen those tests in person, destructive as hell, but WAY, WAY COOL to watch.......:reddevil::cheers:.

[mrcrsr]

gary, years ago i watched an lm2500 come apart, it wasn't pretty!! i think it was something like 2.5 million in damage if i remember correctly, wiped out the power turbine as well. hoping to put the powerhead on tomorrow nite. i'm thinking i'm going to bring the fuel pres from 45 to 55 psi and try to fire it once i calibrate the ignition timing and see what it does, i wonder how far off the fuel curve will be, i'm thinking the increase in fuel pressure will offset the differnce in moving the injectors into the crankcase, as they will now be seeing crankcase pressure, but also this engine should make alot more power then the old one, so i can see the demand for fuel increasing.

[Liberator*21]

gary, years ago i watched an lm2500 come apart, it wasn't pretty!! i think it was something like 2.5 million in damage if i remember correctly, wiped out the power turbine as well. hoping to put the powerhead on tomorrow nite. i'm thinking i'm going to bring the fuel pres from 45 to 55 psi and try to fire it once i calibrate the ignition timing and see what it does, i wonder how far off the fuel curve will be, i'm thinking the increase in fuel pressure will offset the differnce in moving the injectors into the crankcase, as they will now be seeing crankcase pressure, but also this engine should make alot more power then the old one, so i can see the demand for fuel increasing.

LOL.......yeah Charlie, it's never pretty when you've a motor that runs with thousands of rotating parts.

Did you get the message I left you on the "O" Ring width, if not its .097. Your project motor is finally gonna get some fuel an spark.....COOL !!!!!!! Sure wish I was closer to you as I love to get my hands on this kinda stuff. Please keep us all in the loop as you make progress cause this is way cool.......:thumbsup:

[Stitch King]

Charlie,

I played with fuel pressure with limited success. Higher pressure led to real good things at higher RPM but because of the injector spray pattern I ran into issues with poor idle in gear when turning a high 30+ pitch prop.

If I remember, the old efi regulator (1999-2003 ish) would cut fuel pressure at idle (with vacuum) to keep the engine from loading up and then when you got on the throttle and vacuum was lost it cranked the pressure back up to spec.

If I remember correctly the engine seemed happy at about 50 PSI. This of course was with the Pink injectors. Yours might be different.


Here's a link to calculate the effect a 10 PSI bump in fuel pressure will have on fuel delivered.

http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4

[Stitch King]

Sure wish I was closer to you as I love to get my hands on this kinda stuff.

You are retired...

Take I-75 south. There's a spare room here. Bring the boat. There's an empty spot in the garage for that too.

[Liberator*21]

You are retired...

Take I-75 south. There's a spare room here. Bring the boat. There's an empty spot in the garage for that too.

LMAO.....thanks Ken, you make it sound way to easy. If it wasn't for the wife still working, I'd have been banging on your door along time ago.......:D

[Capt.Insane-o]

:) :) :)

[mrcrsr]

here we go, all wired up http://i47.tinypic.com/3492w4o.jpg

[mrcrsr]

http://i48.tinypic.com/2jf0okp.jpg

[mrcrsr]

http://i48.tinypic.com/izu8g5.jpg

[mrcrsr]

i was able to reuse the msd wires i had made for the other 3 litre. does anyone know the tps wiring on the older 3 litres? the colors on the tps are black(ground), blue/red and blue/yellow- trying to figure out which wire is the 5v input and which is signal out, i'm thinking it is the blue/red is the 5v feed. thats the way i wired it unless someone knows. hoping to put the engine on tonite after work. thanks for all the help and suggestions, i'll try bumping up the fuel pres, as my inj time at idle was 3.1-3.3 ms, so i should still be able to drop that a lil. as far as the plane off problems, what would happen is the motor is totally responsive, but would only hit 5700-5900 rpm on plane off(while the prop was cavitating), the engine/computer thinks its under full load, and adds to much fuel. if i lean out the map the motor would rpm up over 6k, but them when you're running the boat on plane it would be too lean at these points, that's where i think the map sensor would come into play to show how much load is on the engine. we'll see, the old engine was pretty bad mechanically.

[MaDneSS]

Looks awesome!! does the 1" spacer do much on 3.0 motors? also why only 1" :)

[mrcrsr]

the spacer helps to add more torque and gives the air a chance to straighten out, almost like a tunnel ram effect. as far as why not add another, it is pretty tite under the cowling, even w/ the stock 300x stuff you can only add 1 spacer and its almost touching the cowling

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

Send me your email address and I'll send you the Merc electrical manual for the early EFI's....

[mrcrsr]

i actually have the merc service manual for all the 3 litres, you can't figure out from the wiring diagram(or the troubleshooting guide) what the wires do. i pretty much need someone who knows or owns one of them to take a multimeter and check it. worse case i'll try it- if it doesn't work i'll have to change the wiring.

[MaDneSS]

the spacer helps to add more torque and gives the air a chance to straighten out, almost like a tunnel ram effect. as far as why not add another, it is pretty tite under the cowling, even w/ the stock 300x stuff you can only add 1 spacer and its almost touching the cowling
More torque?.... thought these 3l's are torque monsters allready, you must be mad!
Are you going to retain all the factory bleed pipes, what do they even do!? lol
Did you cut/stuff the front half on this motor?

[Stitch King]

Hey Charlie, Is your fuel pressure regulator Vacuum referenced? It looks like you have a vacuum line going to it unless my eyes are deceiving me.

[mrcrsr]

crankcase is stuffed like the thanksgiving turkey, lol! you can never have enough power, so a lil more torque never hurts. i'm not running a bleed system, this engine was patterned after the 2.5/260/280 and they don't run a bleed system, alot of it has to do w/ where the fuel is injected, and this thing doesn't have any fuel going thru the reeds, so there shouldn't be any puddling issues w/ fuel. they typically use the bleed system to help improve the idle by getting rid of pudled fuel in the intake tract.

[mrcrsr]

i do have it vacuum referenced, that way it does see less fuel pressure at idle

[Liberator*21]

i actually have the merc service manual for all the 3 litres, you can't figure out from the wiring diagram(or the troubleshooting guide) what the wires do. i pretty much need someone who knows or owns one of them to take a multimeter and check it. worse case i'll try it- if it doesn't work i'll have to change the wiring.


Charlie,

I've got a 1995 wiring diag. and it's crystal clear and easy to read right back to the ECU's

[mrcrsr]

the problem gary is the early engines only used 5 v reference supply to the tps only- it doesn't daisy chain around the engine like the newer 3 litres, so you basically see both wires go from the ecu to the tps only, so you can't disttinguish what wire does what

[rchevelle71]

Charlie,

What makes the difference between the old and new? I am assuming the old style ECU? Not sure what year my motor is as it is made up of several motors, but does have the old style ECU's if that helps.

[Liberator*21]

the problem gary is the early engines only used 5 v reference supply to the tps only- it doesn't daisy chain around the engine like the newer 3 litres, so you basically see both wires go from the ecu to the tps only, so you can't disttinguish what wire does what

Got'cha.........

[Capt.Insane-o]

i was able to reuse the msd wires i had made for the other 3 litre. does anyone know the tps wiring on the older 3 litres? the colors on the tps are black(ground), blue/red and blue/yellow- trying to figure out which wire is the 5v input and which is signal out, i'm thinking it is the blue/red is the 5v feed. thats the way i wired it unless someone knows..


almost 100% certain the blue yellow is reference and blue red is 5v

[rchevelle71]

Checked mine last night, and the blue/yellow had 4.8v with the key on, harness side, TPS unplugged, blue/red nada.

[mrcrsr]

thanks rick! i'll have to change the wiring. as for your question, the newer style stuff uses a single motorola computer, as compared to the 2 merc computers on your engine, more or less newer technology. pulled the old powerhead last nite and installed the new one, had to change fuel lines and rerig a couple of things, i still have to do the starter wiring, fix the tps wiring and configure the timing before lite off!

[rchevelle71]

thanks rick! i'll have to change the wiring. as for your question, the newer style stuff uses a single motorola computer, as compared to the 2 merc computers on your engine, more or less newer technology. pulled the old powerhead last nite and installed the new one, had to change fuel lines and rerig a couple of things, i still have to do the starter wiring, fix the tps wiring and configure the timing before lite off!

Cool,

That is what I figured with the ecu's

[1 Tuff 69]

Nasa has nothing over you guys , this is way to cool ! great work charlie / and chaz you got another notch on your belt !

[Stitch King]

The old ECU's (one for fuel and one for ignition) were 16 bit processors. The new style (and the Wolf) are 32 Bit. It's an exponential increase in processing ability. Going from 16 to 32 only sounds like double but it's really able to process 16 times more info.

I love this stuff. :) Charlie, you need to post pics of it on the mid.

[rchevelle71]

The old ECU's (one for fuel and one for ignition) were 16 bit processors. The new style (and the Wolf) are 32 Bit. It's an exponential increase in processing ability. Going from 16 to 32 only sounds like double but it's really able to process 16 times more info.

I love this stuff. :) Charlie, you need to post pics of it on the mid.

The only info I am processing while the boat is out is how many drinks are left in my cooler, I like 32 better, but 16 will do:D

[MaDneSS]

The only info I am processing while the boat is out is how many drinks are left in my cooler, I like 32 better, but 16 will do:D

It's an exponential increase in processing ability.

And it definatly gets extra-mental after you've drunk 32 beers

[rchevelle71]

And it definatly gets extra-mental after you've drunk 32 beers

Of course most of them are for the crew:D:rolleyes:

[mrcrsr]

here's some v!ideo of it running, it sounds great! has old plugs in it, 32:1 oil, and is running rich. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAwhHaNzmiM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[1 Tuff 69]

I was just going to post that , you beat me to it

[captainsteve]

Charlie that's one bad a** 3 liter of coarse it fired right up.

[Stitch King]

Nice job! BTW, Your neighbors must love you. :)

[Stitch King]

did a leakdown on 1 cylinder and it came back at 20%! that thing is done

Charlie, I'm wondering if excessive leakdown and worn out crank seals were causing the problem you were having with your holeshot. Crankcase pressure (pulses) leaking between the wrong places at the wrong time could wreak havoc on your air/fuel intake into the motor causing fuel to build up and give the burbling effect you mentioned.

[Liberator*21]

:iagree:, very nice job Charlie, sounds SWEET & looks KILLER.............!!!!!!!:reddevil:

[mrcrsr]

hoping to take it out and start break in and tuning tomorrow, still have to neaten up a bunch of wiring. the throttle response is great!

[mrcrsr]

here's some pics of it on the boat http://i47.tinypic.com/1z6fbf8.jpg

[mrcrsr]

http://i50.tinypic.com/okmt5t.jpg

[MaDneSS]

Looks awesome mate good work!
With other mods aside, do you anticipate much difference in power/ torque with crankcase injection?

[Frank Molé]

sounds happy,time to get out there,nice work...............

[mrcrsr]

its been raing here since 4am, never fails! what happened to"if you don't like the weather wait an hour!"

[Vegas XT]

You have to wait about 5! Motor looks good bud.

[Tom Foley]

AWESOME !! NEED TWINS !!!:cheers:

[Capt.Insane-o]

Curious to see the fuel offsets for 1-2 and 5-6.

[mrcrsr]

still working on point in time of injection, ran into some detonation issues at 3500 rpm while in the middle of building the fuel map, but seems like it has to do w/ point in time of injection. the throttle response is excellent. incidentally, i found the typical mixture offset found in the horn injected 2.5's between port and stbd, but at 3500 i didn;t see any difference between the upper and lower cylinders. idle quality is excellent as well

[captainsteve]

Heard it on the phone when Charlie was running it today. It sounds mean!!!

[mrcrsr]

got it straighted out, got most of the fuel curve built up to 5500 rpm, engine is using a lil more then 15% more fuel then the other 3 litre wolf engine(wet reed), power is up significantly- when i was doing the tuning i left the jack plate down to simulate the highest load it would see-the old engine would go over 4200 rpm like this- the new engine easily went to 5500(over 85 mph) like this. i'm hoping to offset the increased fuel burn by spinning a bigger prop or using a taller gear ratio so hopefully my mileage will come back. as stated, i found and corrected the port/stbd fuel mixture difference. as far as the horn creating problems i haven't found that yet, at 3500 rpm though the center cylinders were richer, don't know if it has to do w/ the angle of the throttle butterfly creating that problem, and i haven't put a correction in for it yet

[Liberator*21]

got it straighted out, got most of the fuel curve built up to 5500 rpm, engine is using a lil more then 15% more fuel then the other 3 litre wolf engine(wet reed), power is up significantly- when i was doing the tuning i left the jack plate down to simulate the highest load it would see-the old engine would go over 4200 rpm like this- the new engine easily went to 5500(over 85 mph) like this. I'm hoping to offset the increased fuel burn by spinning a bigger prop or using a taller gear ratio so hopefully my mileage will come back. As stated, i found and corrected the port/stbd fuel mixture difference. As far as the horn creating problems i haven't found that yet, at 3500 rpm though the center cylinders were richer, don't know if it has to do w/ the angle of the throttle butterfly creating that problem, and i haven't put a correction in for it yet




Awesome !!!!!!!!!

[baja200merk]

Dyno time!!!! :D

[mrcrsr]

i have it set up to go on the dyno, but i think i may put a couple more hours on it first, and do a lil more tuning. put my 1.62 case on it, so we'll see how it works w/ more load

[mrcrsr]

pulled a leakdown on the engine, 0-2%, so all looks good. rewrote the map sensor calibration table, i'd like to try and get it to run off the map sensor, and switched out to the 1.62 case, hopefully if i get home early enough i'll put some more time on it

[Liberator*21]

Good work Charlie, your going where no man has gone before..........:thumbsup:

[Dave Strong]

Can't wait till your broke in and get her dialed in. Nice work!

Dave

[mrcrsr]

i'm up to 96 mph at 5600 on the tuning, it pulls the 1.62 case w/ no problem, but its time to go on the dyno. wish there was a way to hook up a wideband o2 sensor to it, be alot easier

[baja200merk]

Whats it ported to turn? You shooting for 120 or what? :D

[mrcrsr]

not sure about that kevin, the weak link in any 3 litre is the rods, so max rpm will be 7k, maybe 7200 once in a while if needed. boat lost some snap going to that gearcase from the 1.75, i know from captn steve's 21 trick 6800 rpm works out to 100 mph w/ the 1.75 gears, we both have the same props, 30 p pro et. i'd like to see 110 plus on rare occasions, so i'd probably use the 1.75 gearcase most of the time as it is definetely more fun to drive. ronnie and ken now have me thinking about putting a wideband o2 sensor on it, and hooking it up to the wolf. probably wouldn't run it in closed loop, but use it for monitoring. problem is there are not alot of places on the 3 litre adapter plate to put it, was hard enough putting egt probes in that are 1/8 npt. anyone have any ideas?

[rchevelle71]

not sure about that kevin, the weak link in any 3 litre is the rods, so max rpm will be 7k, maybe 7200 once in a while if needed. boat lost some snap going to that gearcase from the 1.75, i know from captn steve's 21 trick 6800 rpm works out to 100 mph w/ the 1.75 gears, we both have the same props, 30 p pro et. i'd like to see 110 plus on rare occasions, so i'd probably use the 1.75 gearcase most of the time as it is definetely more fun to drive. ronnie and ken now have me thinking about putting a wideband o2 sensor on it, and hooking it up to the wolf. probably wouldn't run it in closed loop, but use it for monitoring. problem is there are not alot of places on the 3 litre adapter plate to put it, was hard enough putting egt probes in that are 1/8 npt. anyone have any ideas?

Charlie,

Where did you put the EGT probes? My boat is equipped with a dual pyrometer, and the probes are all wired up, just have them tied up inside the boat. Havent been able to figure out where on the 3 liter to put them? I had it hooked up on my onld 2.4, but just been a dead gage in the dash since then.

Rick

[Liberator*21]

Rick,

I just sent these pics to Charlie, figure you might be able to get something out of them as well, probe location on my 300x;

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/300x%20EGTs/Piston061_zps88138004.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/300x%20EGTs/Piston059_zpsed058c9b.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/300x%20EGTs/Piston058_zps6d45967b.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/300x%20EGTs/Piston060_zpsfaad641d.jpg

[rchevelle71]

Thanks,

I am guessing ya gotta pull the powerhead and drill/tap them in yerself? If so, I'll wait until after break in, as I also have some solid mounts that have been sitting in my toolbox for a while that I wanna throw in there. I am still having some trouble, while it didnt blow up this time, it shut off after running about 10 minutes at 4000RPM, this happened twice. Had a merc tech on the boat with me the second time, and he thinks the VST is runnin' out of fuel, gonna tear into it this weekend and see if I can figger sumthin' out.

[Liberator*21]

Thanks,

I am guessing ya gotta pull the powerhead and drill/tap them in yerself? If so, I'll wait until after break in, as I also have some solid mounts that have been sitting in my toolbox for a while that I wanna throw in there. I am still having some trouble, while it didnt blow up this time, it shut off after running about 10 minutes at 4000RPM, this happened twice. Had a merc tech on the boat with me the second time, and he thinks the VST is runnin' out of fuel, gonna tear into it this weekend and see if I can figger sumthin' out.

Rick,

You don't have to pull the power head to do this, just remove the skirt, that'll give you access to the area you'll be working in, worst case you may have to unbolt the lower pan so it'll give you a little more room each side. Good luck on the fuel issue..........

[rchevelle71]

Rick,

You don't have to pull the power head to do this, just remove the skirt, that'll give you access to the area you'll be working in, worst case you may have to unbolt the lower pan so it'll give you a little more room each side. Good luck on the fuel issue..........

How can I tell if I am drilling into the right area? I will have the lowers cowlings and stuff off this weekend while I have the VST off, I'll take a closer look. Keep in mind mine started life as a 250EFI, not sure if there is a difference in the adapter.

[Liberator*21]

How can I tell if I am drilling into the right area? I will have the lowers cowlings and stuff off this weekend while I have the VST off, I'll take a closer look. Keep in mind mine started life as a 250EFI, not sure if there is a difference in the adapter.

Adapter is pretty much genric.....same stuff applies.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/1-Junk%20Pics/Adapter_zps39c2e9c4.jpg

[Stitch King]

ronnie and ken now have me thinking about putting a wideband o2 sensor on it, and hooking it up to the wolf. probably wouldn't run it in closed loop, but use it for monitoring. problem is there are not alot of places on the 3 litre adapter plate to put it, was hard enough putting egt probes in that are 1/8 npt. anyone have any ideas?

What size is the pipe thread hole in the adapter plate for the EGT adapter?

[rchevelle71]

Adapter is pretty much genric.....same stuff applies.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/1-Junk%20Pics/Adapter_zps39c2e9c4.jpg

Cool, looks like yours are at a slight angle? Do you remember the size of the threads?

[Liberator*21]

If I remember correctly, there 1/8-27 NPT......... The fittings were drilled out to allow the probes to fit through.

[Liberator*21]

Here's acouple more with better views from my 250 EFI;

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/300x%20EGTs/250EFI014_zpsda211c5e.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/300x%20EGTs/250EFI015_zps2063f16a.jpg

[rchevelle71]

Thanks,

That should work, if I get the balls to put a drill to it:D

[baja200merk]

not sure about that kevin, the weak link in any 3 litre is the rods, so max rpm will be 7k, maybe 7200 once in a while if needed. boat lost some snap going to that gearcase from the 1.75, i know from captn steve's 21 trick 6800 rpm works out to 100 mph w/ the 1.75 gears, we both have the same props, 30 p pro et. i'd like to see 110 plus on rare occasions, so i'd probably use the 1.75 gearcase most of the time as it is definetely more fun to drive. ronnie and ken now have me thinking about putting a wideband o2 sensor on it, and hooking it up to the wolf. probably wouldn't run it in closed loop, but use it for monitoring. problem is there are not alot of places on the 3 litre adapter plate to put it, was hard enough putting egt probes in that are 1/8 npt. anyone have any ideas?

The snowmobile guys run o2 sensors in 2 strokes at 32:1 all the time. They do not last as long as they do in 4 strokes but they do live for a while. Long enough to tune it. In a perfect world o2 or not, the best way to really tune it is to put it on the dyno so you can tune for peak torque every 100rpm. I swear I read some where bush ran an o2 in his.

[RBT]

use NTK
the trick is to keep it DRY!

[mrcrsr]

its gonna be hard to keep dry, i don't run a skirt because of the wingplate, i guess i could try to use heatshrink tubing to seal everything up. it appears that all the o2 sensors are 18mm, i have to look and see if i can tap that spot to 1/4 npt, maybe i could build a straight adapter that is 1/4 npt x 18 mm so the tip of the sensor is in the exhaust stream. put 120 miles on the boat this weekend at the palatka run, didn't miss a beat! fully loaded down w/ fuel and passengers, acceleration is nite and day better, took it up to 95 plus a couple of times. the fuel burn is up a lil, aprox 20%, which i expected seeing how much the fuel injection rate is up. eventually i could probably turn a bigger prop to offset this, but it is more fun w/ the acceleration. that was my biggest complaint w/ the skater was the lack of acceleration, which is now tolerable. the engine is going on the dyno weds. to fine tune the lower points in the range, and get 6k rpm and up done. it was nice to finally meet you in person ken! my wife took some pics of you guys running, but they were blurry.

[Stitch King]

Good meeting you and your wife also. Here's a shot of you and the family on the way to the Spring. :thumbsup: If you want the full resolution file (10mb) let me know and I'll email it.

[mrcrsr]

thanks ken! if you could email it that would be great

[mrcrsr]

gary, do you think there is room in there to go to 12 mm? they make a 45 deg adapter that is 12 mm on one side, 18 mm on the other to accomodate the o2 sensor

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

Depending on where your EGT Probes are located.....coming in from the sides should be doable, if not how about coming in from the aft end directly into the exhaust runners ? Should be plenty of meat there to work with.

[mrcrsr]

sounds good gary, hopefully gonna run it on the dyno tonite, waiting on an adapter for the dyno, should be here today

[Liberator*21]

Good luck Charlie, hope everything goes your way.......

Did you every hear back from Ricky @ Pro Marine on the coil refund ????

[mrcrsr]

they take the money quickly but refund slowly, lol! got the ra # on monday and sent back, usually its a couple of days

[Liberator*21]

they take the money quickly but refund slowly, lol!

Ain't that the truth Charlie, pretty much everywhere these days.........to those business's it's free money to make interest on.

[Stitch King]

gary, do you think there is room in there to go to 12 mm? they make a 45 deg adapter that is 12 mm on one side, 18 mm on the other to accomodate the o2 sensor

Charlie,

I'm guessing the 45* adapter would not allow the O2 tip to be in the exhaust stream. I think you would want the tip in the stream even if it's shrouded to reduce the possibility of contamination.

You might need something custom. I think I remember seeing a lathe in someones garage when I was down in Ohio... Last I heard he was retired and bored. :)

Ken

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

I'm guessing the 45* adapter would not allow the O2 tip to be in the exhaust stream. I think you would want the tip in the stream even if it's shrouded to reduce the possibility of contamination.

You might need something custom. I think I remember seeing a lathe in someones garage when I was down in Ohio... Last I heard he was retired and bored. :)

Ken

Thanks Ken.....Damn..............."I'm BUSTED".........:eek::smiletest:

[MaDneSS]

How about straight in the side of the tuner?

[mrcrsr]

thats what i'm thinking. gary, if i get the measurements of the tip of the o2 sensor could you make an adapter that would go in the side of the adapter plate? apparently the threads on the sensor are 18mm, not sure of the diameter of the tip of the sensor, which would dictate what the male diameter would be. threw her up on the dyno last nite, that thing screams! a couple of times it flashed thru the limiter up to 7400 rpm, pretty wild hearing a 3 litre up that high. peak torque seems to be around 4-4500 rpm. his dyno doesn't give hp measurements, just hyd pressure, but was great for loading the engine for building the fuel map. now i just need to get time to go run it.

[Stitch King]

Charlie and Gary,

I found an old Denso O2 Sensor from when I did my Chevy LS swap in my Jeep.

Its tip diameter is 12 mm and the projection from the end of the threads is 21.75 mm.

The threads are 18 x 1.50. At the base there is a 2.0mm sealing crush washer and the threads above the crush washer are 7.0mm long.

You probably would want to send a sensor to your machinist just to make sure everything fits.

Ken

[Liberator*21]

Charlie and Gary,

I found an old Denso O2 Sensor from when I did my Chevy LS swap in my Jeep.

Its tip diameter is 12 mm and the projection from the end of the threads is 21.75 mm.

The threads are 18 x 1.50. At the base there is a 2.0mm sealing crush washer and the threads above the crush washer are 7.0mm long.

You probably would want to send a sensor to your machinist just to make sure everything fits.

Ken


Metric sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!

12 mm=.472

21.75 mm= .856

2.0 mm=.078

18 mm x 1.5 tap is something I don't happen to have...........

[Stitch King]

Charlie,

Looks like you'll need to send a tap to your machinist too. :)

[Stitch King]

Metric sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea it's a PIA. I'm just old enough that when I first started in my career all of the drawings were in done in inches. Then I had to make the switch to the metric system yet some of the old drawings still pop up and I have to take the time to convert back and forth. Like I said it's a PIA.

[Dave Strong]

Metric sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!

12 mm=.472

21.75 mm= .856

2.0 mm=.078

18 mm x 1.5 tap is something I don't happen to have...........



I have an 18mmx1.5 tap they have used it in the automotive world since the early 80's. But sort of a big hole to to put in an outboard exhaust adapter. They are using O2 sensors in the newer snowmobiles and from what I remember they seemed to be a smaller hole size.

Dave

[Liberator*21]

Yeah, :iagree: 18 mm is a big hole. Thanks Dave might be worth looking into...........

[Stitch King]

There is a smaller one that uses a 12mm thread but it's a narrow band sensor opposed to the wide band.

[Liberator*21]

Did a little web searching this morning to see what info is out there and found this as it does mention 2 strokes and placement of sensor ;

Not getting the life out of your O2 sensor that you expected? Follow these steps to insure award-winning accuracy and maximum sensor life:


Sensor Placement. The sensor bung (or boss) should be at least 8" away from the combustion cylinder (at or after the collector if you have one, unless you're installing a sensor for each cylinder). To avoid condensation running into the sensor, it should be installed at the side or on top, of the exh. pipe.


Temperature. Temperature at the bung should not exceed 500 degrees C or 900 degrees F. (Extended bungs help with hot locations, see next item).


Extended bungs. For high performance and power sports applications, we strongly recommend using 1" bungs (p/n 3764.) These longer bungs increase sensor life in the "richer" conditions encountered under boost, leaded fuel use, or two-stroke application.

I'm think'n that its gonna be tough to get a sensor far enough away from the potential exhaust flame as my EGT's see that at WOT mounted in the exh. adapter plate....... I'd think you'd have to shield the sensors tip some how or mount it with the sensors tip recessed away from direct exh. flow ????????

[mrcrsr]

my understanding was harley used a 12mm sensor but it was a narrowband. this adapter seems like it might be the ticket to this. one thing i don't understand, i thought the o2 sensor had to be in the exhaust stream but apparently being close is ok?? take a look http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/powersports-12-mm-to-18-mm-o2-sensor-adapter-3835-p-286.html?osCsid=994d9825c7d18143783681119ceaaaea

[Instigator]

i also used an omc test wheel to help build the curves
You're welcome ;)
Way cool project Charles and thanks for the phone call alerting me to it.

[mrcrsr]

here's an adapter that takes the 02 sensor out of the exhaust stream, i'm leaning towards the first adapter posted because it uses a 12 mm thread, so it would be a smaller footprint in the exhaust adapter http://www.ebay.com/itm/KOSO-O2-SENSOR-BUNG-ADAPTER-2-STROKE-ENGINES-USE-WIDEBAND-AIR-FUEL-RAT-/370638428798?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item564bc59a7e http://www.ebay.com/itm/OBX-Racing-Sports-O2-Sensor-Heat-Sink-Bung-Extender-for-Wideband-Controllers-NEW-/200820975881?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec1dce909&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/OBX-Racing-Sports-O2-Sensor-Heat-Sink-Bung-Extender-for-Wideband-Controllers-NEW-/200820975881?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec1dce909&vxp=mtr)

[mrcrsr]

thanks for your help gary! was gonna try and go out today, but i think i have too much work at the house to wrap up:nonod:

[Instigator]

thanks for your help gary! was gonna try and go out today, but i think i have too much work at the house to wrap up:nonod:No problem Charlie. Was just bustin your chops anyhow.
What a great thread. Just sat down w/my morning coffee and read it all from page one. Was interesting too that as I read and the project went from chalk board to work bench to boat I was hoping that it would be complete and running by the time I go to the last page :p
Hated seeing Chaz's thread w/his art work being taken down too. Some pretty amazing talent on this thread guys.
Awesome stuff and thanks for sharing.

[mrcrsr]

this is the guage kit i'm probably gonna buy, i guess i'll have to lenthen the wiring as it will not be long enough, my other option is just to run the output to the wolf and read it on the laptopl http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

I too was always under the impression that the sensor had to be in the direct line of exhaust gas flow, but as some of these younger generation tuners are playing with these as well as the drag snowmobile guys, well their all teaching us what was once thought to be the rule is no longer. I don't really think that the sensor needs exhaust gas volume, rather a small sampling should suffice. That OBX Racing Bung extender looks like it might be the hot ticket for 2 stroke application. Good stuff Charlie.........that gauge looks nice too..........

By the way, I got the boat out Friday and went through "Break-In", ran like a champ after goping through 2 sets of plugs because of the 2x oil and idle zones.......thanks again for your help.

[mrcrsr]

nice gary!! i did a lil research(and listened to rbt), and found alot of complaints of sensor failure w/ units that used the bosch sensor(which seems to be the majority of them). i found that ngk makes a wideband that uses their ntk sensor, and is tolerant of leaded fuels, methanol, etc. most of the manufacturers stated that 2 stroke fuels will shorten sensor life. i am going to order this today http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/performance/afx.asp it also has an output that the wolf will accept, that way i can use it for data logging. don't know if i'll allow the wolf to auto adjust the fuel mixture based upon the 02 sensor though.

[mrcrsr]

here's a pic of the adapter http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/images/products/wb-ba-3835_med.jpg

[Liberator*21]

here's a pic of the adapter http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/images/products/wb-ba-3835_med.jpg

Charlie,

I think this adapter will be the ticket for your set up......:D. Ken would probably know if the Wolf is capable of making adjustments to the fuel curve based on the O2 sensor input, he's pretty damn good with that Wolf too..... Best of luck on the project :cheers:.

[Chaz]

Hated seeing Chaz's thread w/his art work being taken down too. Some pretty amazing talent on this thread guys.
Awesome stuff and thanks for sharing.

OMC dude,
Being just five weeks outside of having a major spine opperation , and the month's of debilitating agony leading up to it. It was quite special to have a place I had enjoyed hanging out , hit me up for money in order to share the progress of my boat with my friends .... :cool:
At this point, I'm content to just lurk , I'll be out next summer and everybody can just judge my "art work" for themself's ... :D

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/IMAG0333.jpg

[Stitch King]

Yes, it could run in a "closed loop" using the o2 sensors.

Charlie and I talked about this and he'll probably just use the O2's for tuning and data logging as a precaution.

[Instigator]

It was quite special to have a place I had enjoyed hanging out , hit me up for money in order to share the progress of my boat with my friends .... :cool:
:D

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/IMAG0333.jpg
Welcome to the hood ;)

[mrcrsr]

lurking on the fringes of society,lol!:D

[mrcrsr]

i'll probably put the o2 sensor in for final tuning and then pull it out. everything i read from the 4 stroke guys said that the ngk sensor was way more accurate then the bosch(sometimes as much as 1 number difference) comparing it w/lab referenced equiptment, and lifespan sometimes was fourfold. the snowmobile guys seem to run around 12-13.1 at cruise w/ the 2 strokes

[Liberator*21]

lurking on the fringes of society,lol!:D


:iagree:........LMAO !!!!!!

[mrcrsr]

took it out yesterday, and just used it instead of working on it for a change! fuel mileage is better as long as you're not in it. its getting 3.5 plus mpg

[opsdave]

That's great to hear Charlie! Can't wait to hear how it runs once it's all dialed in. Mine is sitting in the driveway covered in frost right now! It's going in to hibernation this week.

[mrcrsr]

that sux dave, i heard it was getting cold up there already, i think its supposed to be 89 here today, it would be nice if it cooled off a lil here

[opsdave]

Must be nice! I wish we had to worry about it cooling off right about now!!

[Liberator*21]

Must be nice! I wish we had to worry about it cooling off right about now!!

:iagree: Dave, 31 this morning......BURRRRRRRRRR.......:p

[opsdave]

:iagree: Dave, 31 this morning......BURRRRRRRRRR.......:p



Gary
Same temp here. I'm not ready for this at all!

[Chaz]

When the two five intake just wont get ya there .. try my new 5 inch shutter .. :D

(the above statement is ment as only a joke and should not be seriously by members or mgmt) ;)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/Vid/Summer%20Makeover/boat%20home/plenum002.jpg

[Capt.Insane-o]

Scored an intake from a 3.1 yamaha. Going to try this out first.

[mrcrsr]

Scored an intake from a 3.1 yamaha. Going to try this out first.
how about some pix to get an idea what it looks like

[PanRonnie]

265698
think it would look something like this

[mrcrsr]

that looks interesting, looks like individual runner? i was thinking for the next one of building a common plenum w/ 2 throttle bodies so it spreads the airflow out a lil.

[mrcrsr]

When the two five intake just wont get ya there .. try my new 5 inch shutter .. :D

(the above statement is ment as only a joke and should not be seriously by members or mgmt) ;)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc29/TubeCarz/Vid/Summer%20Makeover/boat%20home/plenum002.jpg

you'd be hard pressed to fit that under the 3 litre cowling, lol!

[PanRonnie]

i just bought an 90 mm LS throttle body
for an plenum design i,m working on
by playing with different restrictors look wat the torque curves are doing

i was also looking for a 6 throttle valve setup but prices sky rocket
here is a nice one for alfa romeo but the price is not even listed
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/throttle-body-kits/jenvey-dynamics/alfa-v6-12v-sf45-throttle-body-kit-ckal01
better one maybe ?
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/throttle-body-kits/jenvey-dynamics/ford-v6-duratec-sf45-throttle-body-kit-ckfd12
but it,s hard to decide on a diameter !!
maybe taking the throttle size of the evinrude,s and go slightly larger ?

[mrcrsr]

the next one i'd like to use 2 throttle bodies on, to even out the air distribution. the horn works but there is an air distribution issue at low throttle opening angles, i find the center 2 cylinders are rich, i put a correction in the computer for it, but that is a bandaid.

[Dave Strong]

the next one i'd like to use 2 throttle bodies on, to even out the air distribution. the horn works but there is an air distribution issue at low throttle opening angles, i find the center 2 cylinders are rich, i put a correction in the computer for it, but that is a bandaid.

Could you do an SVS type intake, some engine seen to work better than others, Seems for allround performance the 2.5 Pro Max motors work better than the Horn engines.
Or do 3 throtle bodies on a plenum, what ever gives the highest velocity seems to work best for allround performance.

Dave

[baja200merk]

SVS and no ratcheting case does not make for a friendly river boat.


Edit: Charlie I remember you saying something about you made your case ratchet by changing the clutch dog? Might make SVS a decent option

[mrcrsr]

my 3 litre sportmaster cases are all set up to ratchet. i definetely want to retain the common plenum for good idle quality and eventually getting the map sensor to work. i think a common plenum(or box of sorts) w/ 2 throttle bodies on it would work. i think also if i had rolled the throttle body 90 deg like the older bridgeports i wouldn't be seeing the air issue at part throttle-something to think about-but its funny that merc changed to a horizontal throttle shaft from vertical-wonder why?

[Capt.Insane-o]

265698
think it would look something like this

Yep, I need to mock everything up again, tomorrow if I get some time I'll get everything unboxed and set it up. I thinkI found somebody locally to work out a set of rods for me too, but that is another battle.


The updrafts sucked up water, center horns always have had air balance issues, the down drafts are okay but there is still an issue with 1 and 2, the svs is great, save for the non ratchet issue. I have a 2.5 set up and was stuck with my back up case which is a no ratcher and like baja said it was literally an eye popper when I chopped the throttle.

[Liberator*21]

Could you do an SVS type intake, some engine seen to work better than others, Seems for allround performance the 2.5 Pro Max motors work better than the Horn engines.
Or do 3 throtle bodies on a plenum, what ever gives the highest velocity seems to work best for allround performance.

Dave


Dave,

I bought one of Tony's SVS and used it on my (now sold) 3L 250 EFI and it was a great improvement over the OEM backward 4 butterfly intake. I think one of the big benefits of that intake system is a straighter flow of incoming air rather than the current top mounted T/B. I think that's where Charlie is trying to go, even and straight air flow............

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/1-Junk%20Pics/IMG_1185.jpg

[mrcrsr]

but you still lack a common plenum which helps low and mid range torque

[Liberator*21]

but you still lack a common plenum which helps low and mid range torque

True Charlie, but I'm just making reference in a stk OEM 4 blade then a swap to SVS. :iagree: 100% that an air box/plenum would be a big plus using front mounted 2 or 3 T/B's. I guess somebody is gonna have to start designing a longer (FWD) pan and cowl so we can get a decent size plenum in there..........Hey Mike Nass, you listening to all this..........LOL.

[mrcrsr]

definetely on a laser injected style engine an svs would make for a dramatic improvement. the next plenum i build will be a clean sheet design, and i should be able to build a larger plenum because i don't have to worry about the velocity stack part of the horn. i do have a couple of throttle bodies here off a 4.6 mustang, but i haven't measured them yet to see what the size is- don't want to overdo it!

[Liberator*21]

I had a MAD EFI 3 horn intake that I so much wanted to mod up by cutting most of the air horns off in order to gain clearence for moving it forward by putting a plenum chamber in between. The MAD intake made some awesome power but it just wasn't very user friendly at idle.

[PanRonnie]

how about building some torque into it :eek: :thumbsup:

[Liberator*21]

:iagree: That would surely add some torque value, nice long runners in a compact set up.......

[mrcrsr]

you aint kidding there, remember the old gm tpi engines, built great torque but were done by 4500 rpm

[Liberator*21]

Yeah Charlie, its a shame you can't have it all in one package, ya either give up the low end to make HP on the big end or vise versa.

I'm work'n on putting a couple "Knock Sensor" on the motor @ 2 & 3 as a little added insurance. It'll be a stand alone (no interface w/PCM/ECU), but it'll let you know if your on the verge of trouble.

[PanRonnie]

Yeah Charlie, its a shame you can't have it all in one package, ya either give up the low end to make HP on the big end or vise versa.

I'm work'n on putting a couple "Knock Sensor" on the motor @ 2 & 3 as a little added insurance. It'll be a stand alone (no interface w/PCM/ECU), but it'll let you know if your on the verge of trouble.

any particular system
this is one i currently am looking at
but i just don,t know :nonod:
http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockMonitor-KS-4.aspx

[Liberator*21]

Ronnie,

Here's the kit I got, simple, no display to watch just a bright LED that signals knock. It's sensativity is fully adjustable as well. last one is a video clip of the mock up, note the temporary mounted LED on the steering wheel when the sensor gets tapped.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/Knock001.jpg


Video Clip:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/th_Knock022.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/?action=view&current=Knock022.mp4)

[Dave Strong]

Ronnie,

Here the kit I got, simple, not display to watch just a bright LED that signals knock. It's sensativity is fully adjustable as well. last one is a video clip of the mock up, note the temporary mounted LED on the steering wheel when the sensor gets tapped.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/Knock001.jpg


Video Clip:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/th_Knock022.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/?action=view&current=Knock022.mp4)

Gary have you run the engine with the knock sensors? Some are real sensitive, had a truck that had a loose piston would hear it when cold but went away warm. The knock sensor would hear it even warm and was allways trying to retard the timing giving poor fuel economy and bit less power. After the piston was replaced it was amazing the fuel economy and part throttle increase.

Dave

[Liberator*21]

Dave,

No, I haven't run the motor as of yet with the sensors on, I think we've got all your freak'n cold air down here..........LOL.

The Knock Sensor control box has a rheostat in it for fine tuning. Boat probably won't see the water with the Knock Sensors on it till spring cause I've got to pull the motor anyway when I put the new Atlas Jack Plate on, and thats the perfect time to run the cables in the rigging tubes, so that'll be middle of next month. I working on machining a sensor bridge that will help support the signal transfer between 3 cylinders each side of the block. I picked up this kit from one of your Canadian bro's up in Ontario. Porsche used a bridge set up on there motors that I've reading up on and it's like a tuning fork reading all 3 holes at one time. Since its aluminum it'll transfer knock great. I'll post up the whole project when I get it all done, been taken pics as I go.

[HP]

I don't know if I can wait for next spring.........Guys I'm very impressed.

[Liberator*21]

Here's my version of the Porsche sensor bridge.........


My version in the mock up stage:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/Knock023.jpg



Porsche Version:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/Image3-2.jpg

[mrcrsr]

looks nice gary! great idea, i've been kicking the idea around as well and just connecting it to the wolf. got the new cyl heads on, 160 psi compression, runs fine w/ aces added. boat accelerates like it never did before. now if i could only get the time to tune it when theres low wind, it blew 25 mph all weekend, makes it difficult to try and hold the throttle steady to do any kind of tuning, went and had a look at the ocean, and it was 6 ft plus so i didn't venture out! the river was bad enough w/ 1-2 ft chop. i can hit 90 now in under 1/2 mile. incidentally, i've seen those sensors on something, i thought they were gm based?

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

160psi....:eek:.....:reddevil:, your now in 2.5 Drag Motor territory.....LOL, I'd say, "HELL YEAH", it should be running real great !!!!:) I'm positive that when the weather allows you to make some good passes, it'll be unreal :thumbsup:.

I finished the Knock Sensor Bridges for port & starboard sides last night, mounted them and it made a world of difference in ability to sense knock equally. With just the knock sensor on the cyl. head stud at #3 & #4, it took allot more effort with my tester to get a knock fault from 1-2-5-6. I used an old spring loaded punch that is adjustable as to how much pressure is applied when you push it down, seems that at one setting on the punch now I get a knock fault on all cylinders equally. Obviously I'll need to tune the sensors in once I get back out again, but it's a great little project and added insurance for not much $$$$ out of pocket.

I'll post it all up within the week as a new project, you know we gotta keep this 3L Rigging/Fab Section going strong........

[baja200merk]

Ronnie,

Here's the kit I got, simple, no display to watch just a bright LED that signals knock. It's sensativity is fully adjustable as well. last one is a video clip of the mock up, note the temporary mounted LED on the steering wheel when the sensor gets tapped.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/Knock001.jpg


Video Clip:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/th_Knock022.jpg (http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/90profx/Knock%20Sensor/?action=view&current=Knock022.mp4)

Well done!

Looks familiar, this one is factory junk it might go fast like you guys one day..............:D...... you know what, make that one of these years... :leaving:

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp163/hondacr8288/F63FCE06-BD3E-4398-88D8-B8BE9A88699D-9385-000003BF23016760.jpg?t=1350447717

[PanRonnie]

was trying to come up with some ideas to fine tune your module to your engine cheaply
according to the knock calculator
http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockCalculator.aspx
you should have a knock frequency of around 92 mm = 6.2 KHerz
and other than sticking your sensor to an underwater speaker with a 6.2 khz tone
i can,t come up with anything
unless you have access to a shaker
http://www.bksv.com/Products/shakers-exciters/exciters/small-exciter-type-4809.aspx?tab=descriptions
or somebody with a shaker :confused:

[Liberator*21]

Well done!

Looks familiar, this one is factory junk it might go fast like you guys one day..............:D...... you know what, make that one of these years... :leaving:


was trying to come up with some ideas to fine tune your module to your engine cheaply
according to the knock calculator
http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockCalculator.aspx
you should have a knock frequency of around 92 mm = 6.2 KHerz
and other than sticking your sensor to an underwater speaker with a 6.2 khz tone
i can,t come up with anything
unless you have access to a shaker
http://www.bksv.com/Products/shakers-exciters/exciters/small-exciter-type-4809.aspx?tab=descriptions
or somebody with a shaker :confused:

Thanks guys, after I posted this I did a little more bench testing and the set up has changed a little. I started a new thread on it. As for tuning for the proper knock frequency, the guy I bought it from said he he preset the frequency close and it might need to be tweaked a little more + or -. I'm think'n worst case is I run it on a 2 gallon jug of 1/2 87 octane and 1/2 89 octane and tune for that.

New thread here:

http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?258174-Fab-ing-up-a-Knock-Sensor-install-300x

[PanRonnie]

on a more wolf related matter
when you having nothing to do on those winter days :D
http://www.sae.org/pdevent/otherproduct/PD130701ON/PDD

[mrcrsr]

that sounds a lil risky gary!! i know they are very specifically tuned to a certain frequency, have had issues in the past w/ some of the stern drive stuff losing power, and it turns out that the knock sensor was being triggered by some other fault on the engine-bad circ pump, alternator bearings, etc could trigger it. i also know when istalling them onto the engine that the torque was crucial. it'll be interesting to see if you can verify its working, but could be risky on a running engine.. thats interesting ronny, definetely something for the winter months(or summer months when its too warm in fl to work on anything without a/c! ran the boat down to jupiter and back yesterday for the boat races, is definetely getting 3 plus mpg, but had to run 30-50 mph on the way back out in the ocean, it was kickin', 2-3 ft chop w/ no regularity plus some swells thrown in for good measure, talk about taking a beating. my friend gary went w/ a 24 skater, surprising what a difference 3 ft makes in a boat. i could't get the boat to settle in and run, if i trimmed in i was worried about stuffing it, so left it trimmed up a lil and drove thru it. i have some video i'll have to post up.

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

I'm gonna play with it and see what happens, got nothing to loose. The guy I got the kit from as different senerios for engine noise that he gave me to work through if needed, so options are available if noise becomes a big issue. Just something to keep me busy.....:p

Glad to hear your running real good, mileage sounds great too. Coundn't even imagine the beating you took and yeah, your right an extra 4 feet in boat length over yours makes a world of difference.

By the way, I might be down in Orlando in January. Wife has a business conference there, might fly down rent a car and drop down and pay you a visit while she's working, I'll be intouch once I know for sure.

[mrcrsr]

nice gary! gotta go over all the hardware on the skater after yesterdays beating,lol! picked up an intake off a 250 etec w/ 3 butterflies, dimensionally it is pretty close to the 3 litre bolt pattern. next step is to do the math, the 3 litre butterfly is 3.49, the etecs are 2.22 (x3) so i guess i'll try area of a circle to see if the smaller 3 butterflies equal or are larger then the single butterfly, airflow would be much more even.

[mrcrsr]

ronnie(or someone who knows math,lol) i came up w/ the area of the factory 300x butterfly(diameter=3.49) is 9.566. the area of the etec intake-each butterfly is 2.20, area is 3.8, multiply by 3(3 butterflies) is 11.4. is my math correct or am i wrong?

[Dave Strong]

ronnie(or someone who knows math,lol) i came up w/ the area of the factory 300x butterfly(diameter=3.49) is 9.566. the area of the etec intake-each butterfly is 2.20, area is 3.8, multiply by 3(3 butterflies) is 11.4. is my math correct or am i wrong?

Math seem right, having 3 butterfly's could make for higher intake speeds and even the flo between cyl's. Cool stuff keep it comming.
Know what your saying with the overtorqued knok sensor thing as well. When I was a drivability tech at GM found most of the time when removing knock sensors that had been in an engine for any length of time they would fail if reinstalled. Due to the torque needed to break them free due to the loctite sealer. Even though the wiring for them are shielded one has to be careful with wire routing also. Keep away from plugwires, alternators, etc.

Dave

[mrcrsr]

thanks dave! a lil rusty w/ math http://i46.tinypic.com/2w5vccg.jpg

[Dave Strong]

thanks dave! a lil rusty w/ math http://i46.tinypic.com/2w5vccg.jpg

Kind of a cool intake. 2 things, 1 ugly throtle valve entry, need a velocity stacks to smooth out airflow. 2 if bolted to reed plate no much of a plenum making it similar to SVS style still may have a couple cyl's with poor signal. Maybe a spacer with Merc. bolt pattern on reed side and Yami on intake side? Not real up on the 3.0l stuff but kinda what I see.

Dave

[Stitch King]

Charlie,

If what you are after is CFM, you need to keep in mind that with more holes you have adding up to a given area, the more wall area you've got, so the lower it'll flow. It's not really a direct comparison.

I'm pretty sure the guys that did the math and came up with the hole size as optimal for the 250 hp engine it was on and not one that's in the mid 300's like yours.

Ken

[Stitch King]

Are you trying to balance out your airflow or get more air in?

[mrcrsr]

trying to balance the airflow to all the cylinders, i was thinking the same thing w/ the plenum area,i could use an extra 3 litre reedplate that is 1/2" thick, weld it to that intake and mill off the exsisting flange to get the bolt pattern correct. i agree the entry sux but some of that could be fixed in the mill, and if need be velocity stacks made. i agree as well, i know these throttle bodies have more wall area, but the overall area is larger so how does it balance out? and wonder how the flow would stack up compared to the horn intake. maybe i'm better off starting w/ a box(of sorts) w/ 2 larger automotive throttle bodies bolted to it?

[Dave Strong]

I was thinking more a 1" spacer but the only way to know is try. I like the 3 throtle valve over the 2. Bet you wish you had a flow bench LOL.


Dave

[Stitch King]

Charlie,

I think one throttle body would be enough. Keep in mind that on an LS3 the throttle body is 90 MM and it's supporting 436 BHP. Depending on where you read the 90mm TB will flow over 1000 CFM so I think if you used the 300x style throttle body at 88 mm you'd be in good shape as long as it flows as cleanly as the Chevy LS one does.

If you want real airflow, you should try this.... :)

http://i49.tinypic.com/f4kzdj.jpg

[Stitch King]

I've got a plastic intake that you can chop open and get some plenum ideas from. I'll leave it at the house tomorrow.

Ken

[mrcrsr]

the biggest issue i see is trying to even out the flow to all the cylinders, rite now w/ the horn i see differences, it mite be fixable w/ the addition of plenum volume but i'm out of space in the cowling because the horn has such a large inlet/velocity stack that is part of the casting. the 3 butterfly deal seems like a good way to go, just not sure of flow though if i'm losing anything. the total area of the butterflies is larger though.

[baja200merk]

Charlie,

If what you are after is CFM, you need to keep in mind that with more holes you have adding up to a given area, the more wall area you've got, so the lower it'll flow. It's not really a direct comparison.

I'm pretty sure the guys that did the math and came up with the hole size as optimal for the 250 hp engine it was on and not one that's in the mid 300's like yours.

Ken

The 300 etec has the same plenum and the guys turning the 3.4 etecs 7500 use the stock plenum. Doubt CFM will be an issue. :thumbsup:

I can bring my buddy Matt an e-tec plenum and see if he can put it on the flow bench if that helps.

[Stitch King]

Baja,

Have him flow a merc throttle body too for comparison.

Charlie,

You might be surprised at how the laws of physics (particularly fluid dynamics) limits the 3 hole (compared to the large single) because of friction losses on the walls of all of the three holes.

I'm not saying it won't work but it may not be optimal either. You've gone to far to settle for less than optimal.

Ken

[rchevelle71]

Baja,

Have him flow a merc throttle body too for comparison.

Charlie,

You might be surprised at how the laws of physics (particularly fluid dynamics) limits the 3 hole (compared to the large single) because of friction losses on the walls of all of the three holes.

I'm not saying it won't work but it may not be optimal either. You've gone to far to settle for less than optimal.

Ken

YUP,

learned about all that stuff in firefightin' school way back.

[mrcrsr]

the 3 litre reed plate i have measures .675 thick, so it is a lil larger the 1/2", the etec plenum is pretty darn close in size to the 3 litre so it won't take much blending work. need to come up w/ a method to make the velocity stacks. anyone have any pics of an etec plenum installed so we can see the throttle linkage/tps?

[baja200merk]

Does this help?

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp163/hondacr8288/E%20tec%20200HO/IMG_20120830_112736-1.jpg

[Liberator*21]

need to come up w/ a method to make the velocity stacks. anyone have any pics of an etec plenum installed so we can see the throttle linkage/tps?

Charlie,

Looks like some back wards throttle fabrication is gonna be needed (maybe), can't really tell what options are available from the one-side photo or if it's possible to put the linkage on the Merc side without having it operate back wards ????

Whats the measurements on the ports, ID, OD Wall thickness and how long can the stacks be before theres interference with the cowl ???

[baja200merk]

No, its the right way. The mercs are backasswards :D

Just switch the cable to the OMC position on the hot foot :thumbsup:

[Liberator*21]

No, its the right way. The mercs are backasswards :D

Good come back............LOL ......:reddevil::D

[mrcrsr]

i have an in control foot throttle so i don't think the cable travel is reversible(uses a flex type(think 10 speed) multi strand wire cable in a normal teleflex jacket). it'd be easy enough to fix, after all this fabrication the easy part will be to build(or modify) a throttle arm that outputs above the pivot point instead of below to reverse the travel, as well as building a bellcrank like the old bridgeports had. gary, i'll have to measure the od of the tubes where the butterflies are. was going to trim them down, install velocity stacks and then blend everything so its nice, and enlarge the inner bore as much as possible up to the butterfly. this intake should at least give evn airflow to all the cylinders. kevin, do you have any pics of the linkage design on an engine?

[Liberator*21]

Charlie,

As for the velocity stacks and sizing, there are allot of stacks available for Harley's and all other bikes that I think would do the trick, just go to Ebay and motorcycle parts then type in Velocity Stacks, lots to choose from, billet, spun aluminum etc..... Worst case a little spin in the lathe and you'd have some that would fit:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=&_qfkw=1&_mqf=0&_osacat=10063&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=velocity+stacks&_sacat=10063&_from=R40

I've got to tear down my lathe, burned up a bearing in it, what a dirty job this is...............

[Chaz]

Not so sure if I can go with the concept that "wall area" of multiple entrys impedes total air flow as much as the stacking effect of poor entry/exit designs, shafts, blades and screw heads have on smaller, higher velocity bores.
Having built many sheetmetal intake manifold's ... err .. looking at this speaker you will see a flat arbor with a raised, large radius "entry" . Were it a throttle bore, the proper exit would be a bore that extends just below the mounting plate and no more than a 7* exit taper no longer than 10% of the bore size, to "shear" the air as it leaves the bore.
Merc did a good job size wise with the down draft plenum. A good rule of thumb is to have the same area as the engines displacment. Round it off and call it 4x4x13=208 cubic inch's ... keeping in mind that "only" one reed block is active at a time, there is more than enough reserve air to pull a charge from , with thottle bore size having little to do with output.
It is real easy to go the other way and get to big on the bore. Open the throttle "half way" and the motor "thinks" it is seeing a properly sized throttle plate. Leaves little room for part throttle opperation.

http://www.mkcinternational.com/images/PB12NSDv2/newpb12_portsnip_280.jpg

[rchevelle71]

Chaz,

Sorry I kept missin' ya on the phone but I think I got it fixed up.

As far as this project goes, this is for fluid, but MAY apply to air as well, read this, especially #2

http://www.pacificpumpandpower.com/docs/Friction_Loss_Table.pdf

[Stitch King]

Yep, you are right on track but the friction looses of air would be different. FWIW, In physics, fluid dynamics is a sub-discipline of fluid mechanics that deals with fluid flow—the natural science of fluids (liquids and gases) in motion.

[Chaz]

Rick , I read the problems you were having. Saw some good info and some .. well we havent spoken in a while, so I rang ya up ... ;)

Water is just thick air, so all rules apply. My point being, as they express it in their charts. That they measure losses in HUNDREDS of feet of pipe. As well as those of just single fittings.
You can throw that orifice (throttle bore) on the bench and get a base line.
Now take another section of tube the same length, tape or glue it on and pull it again. You might see a 5 or 10 cfm loss.
Take the throttle blade out and youll see at least a 50 cfm gain .. pull the shaft out and pick up about the same. Now some of that is related to friction, but from what I've seen, it has to do with the column being disrupted and part of it tumbling.
That 3 hole JohnRude body puts one hole over a closely linked pair of reed block entries. It also flairs out on the exit pretty early.
The only real down side is that it needs more plenum volume and the std air flow picker uppers. Well the bellcrank thing too , but thats not to hateful.
My motors are getting the Merc plenums with some warmed over stock bodies. Maybe sometime in the future I might make a couple of billet rail sheet metal intakes with two propper size holes out the front.

[rchevelle71]

Rick , I read the problems you were having. Saw some good info and some .. well we havent spoken in a while, so I rang ya up ... ;)

Water is just thick air, so all rules apply. My point being, as they express it in their charts. That they measure losses in HUNDREDS of feet of pipe. As well as those of just single fittings.
You can throw that orifice (throttle bore) on the bench and get a base line.
Now take another section of tube the same length, tape or glue it on and pull it again. You might see a 5 or 10 cfm loss.
Take the throttle blade out and youll see at least a 50 cfm gain .. pull the shaft out and pick up about the same. Now some of that is related to friction, but from what I've seen, it has to do with the column being disrupted and part of it tumbling.
That 3 hole JohnRude body puts one hole over a closely linked pair of reed block entries. It also flairs out on the exit pretty early.
The only real down side is that it needs more plenum volume and the std air flow picker uppers. Well the bellcrank thing too , but thats not to hateful.
My motors are getting the Merc plenums with some warmed over stock bodies. Maybe sometime in the future I might make a couple of billet rail sheet metal intakes with two propper size holes out the front.

Gotcha Chaz, thanks for the offer, still may ring ya back if this doesnt work. All I know is what I(but then again that was water under pressure) was taught like 20 years ago in fire school, a 6" diameter hose carries way more than 3-2" diameter hoses. Not to mention the friction, and length, but runner length is not really a big deal here. Either way, I can also see where too much could be overkill. I dont know motors much anyhow, I can turn a wrench, but not much about the science behind what works like others who have dealt with this stuff much longer than me.

[baja200merk]

i have an in control foot throttle so i don't think the cable travel is reversible(uses a flex type(think 10 speed) multi strand wire cable in a normal teleflex jacket). it'd be easy enough to fix, after all this fabrication the easy part will be to build(or modify) a throttle arm that outputs above the pivot point instead of below to reverse the travel, as well as building a bellcrank like the old bridgeports had. gary, i'll have to measure the od of the tubes where the butterflies are. was going to trim them down, install velocity stacks and then blend everything so its nice, and enlarge the inner bore as much as possible up to the butterfly. this intake should at least give evn airflow to all the cylinders. kevin, do you have any pics of the linkage design on an engine?

Come on charlie, a mercruiser shift cable doohickey and your set :D :D

[mrcrsr]

thanks for the input gary, i'll take a look on fleabay! thanks for the input as well charly, i was thinking the addition of the .675" thick reed plate would help add to the plenum volume, as well as adapt my bolt pattern. the linkage is the least of my problems, lol! kevin, do you have any pics of the front of the etec where the linkages are? i'll start on this project soon, got a couple of more engines that need to go out from being rebuilt before i make a mess of my shop again w/ aluminum filings everywhere

[mrcrsr]

Come on charlie, a mercruiser shift cable doohickey and your set :D :D

it'll look better out of a piece of machined alloy,lol! wouldn't want to make it too easy, what fun would that be??

[Liberator*21]

it'll look better out of a piece of machined alloy,lol! wouldn't want to make it too easy, what fun would that be??


:iagree:,.....LOL, if it was easy then everybody would have one, no fun there........:D

[PanRonnie]

wat i took out of the bell mouth document
was that the ideal would be an elliptical shape for ultimate performance
but that it was not as important, as according to the researcher conclusions
even a small radius already performs well in keeping laminar flow and high flow velocity
it might be an idea to create the largest plenum ( intake spacer with common room ) possible
while maintaining a good fit under the cowling
http://papers.sae.org/2008-01-3007/

[PanRonnie]

http://www.thehulltruth.com/members/dreamweaver21-albums-26-horn-picture54723-4.jpg

from wat i understand mounted normally it would have to turn from left to right
but if you mount it upside down you could use it the same as the early 2.4 intake horn,s

[mrcrsr]

i could flip it, would be easy enough to do. anyone have the pics of what the stock arm looks like on the etec- i have a friend who is supposed to get me the factory tps and arm. as far as making the plenum larger i could, have to find thicker material as i do have more room w/ this intake.

[PanRonnie]

wat if you create a reed plate like in the foto out f a 10 mm aluminium
plate and weld a box on the outside of
aluminium sheet 10 mm or maybe thinner
http://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/aluminium-sheets/0188321/
weld on frontplate out of 10 mm where you mount on the intake
make it large enough to keep the mounting bolts on the inside

[mrcrsr]

the question is how much plenum is enough, lol! i do have a lil more room w/ this intake but still need to add in velocity stacks, have to get a minute to go on ebay, the tube od is 2.5" . the reed plate i have(was going to cut open the inside) is .675" thick so wondering if this will build enough of a plenum in conjunction w/ the etec intake manifold. any ideas what the plenum volume should be? i think charly said it should equal the displacement of the engine.

[baja200merk]

i could flip it, would be easy enough to do. anyone have the pics of what the stock arm looks like on the etec- i have a friend who is supposed to get me the factory tps and arm..
Give me a half hour ill post a pic

[PanRonnie]

if you keep the edges of the reed plate square
you can mount the velocity stack inside the plenum
like in the pictures
1 plate with a rounded edge and the spacer-plates with the same dimensions
this way you can add tuner length to where you want to put it
this was basically my idea for the new plenum design
you can increase the plenum volume by making the box wider to the side,s
how much is enough ?
maybe as much as you can get away with
you can always add in more spacer-plates/velocity stacks inside the plenum
which will increase tuner length but also decrease plenum volume

[mrcrsr]

definetely not enough room for that ronnie! my old engine running a factory 300x plenum w/ a 1" spacer would touch the front of the cowl. it looks like i'll just add the .675" spacer to the plenum and call it a day. finally got the parts yesterday for the etec linkage, might as well not of, that whole linkage setup sux. looks like i'll end up machining a throttle arm and relocating the tps somewhere else, perhaps on the bellcrank or main throttle arm, worst case i'll use what the factory '02 and up 3litres/optis use, w/ a linkage off the throttle arm

[mrcrsr]

just wanted to give an update, haven't had much time to play w/ the setup, been busy w/ work, but i pulled 5% fuel out of it above 6k rpm, boat went 103 on the last run, just pulled it apart and getting ready to install a 15" midsection over christmas break. i'll get some pics up soon

[Stitch King]

boat went 103 on the last run

That's with two people in it from what I heard...

So it should be even faster with a lighter load. :thumbsup:

[mrcrsr]

2 people and 25 gallons of fuel, so the boat wasn't lite, the best part is the acceleration though. i know i have to change the intake manifold so i didn't want to put a lot more time into tuning the top end. i'm curious to see what i gain in top end(if anything) from going to the 15" mid, its gotta do something getting the big 3 litre cowl out of the wind.