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View Full Version : 1984 Mariner 150 loss of power / bogging down while accelerating



Dave_hunting
07-24-2007, 08:44 PM
I'll try posting this in the right forum now:o .


Lets start with the information overkill:
1984 Mariner 150 :o
Model Number/ Serial Number: 7150724/06466160<O:p</O:p
19p 3 blade Alum prop
Thunderbolt III Ignition system
advanced oil system with 3 gal oil Resevour
Carbs: WH-27 1,2 and 3
Jet sizes
6 Primary jets(high speed) .064
6 Idle Jets .054
There are NO intale venturi jets on these carbs.:cool:

I live in New Mexico, I normaly operate this boat at 4200 Ft elevation. I live at 6200 feet. The boat came fron sea level. I know the Seloc manual says. size down the main and idle jets .002 for elevations 2500 to 5000 feet. Could this be a major factor? I have done nothing to them as of yet.
The jets are Mercury spec size. for 0 to 2500 feet.
I could not find smaller jets of this size anywhere. A local carb customizing shop recomended soldiering them closed and drill press them to the smaller diameter hole.
<O:p</O:p
OK, I must tell you I feel like im chasing my tail! This is a long post Iíve read a lot and done a lot to this motor already.
My motor looses power at around 1800 RPM. When I hit 1800 I have to stop moving the throttle, If I give it more throttle the motor will bog down and loose all power:mad:. I can some time, not all the time choke it while increasing the throttle and get the power head to get past the 1800 rpm hump and rev up to 5000 RPM:cool: . Other times it bogs down and dies as if i were not choking it. When it gets past this mid range hump, it purrs. Maybe one out of 20 times I can get it up on plane. The angle of the motor is critical when doing this it needs to be tilted all the way in the down position roughly 8 to 10 degrees past level(after setting the floats to spec's). If I keep it there long it will not idle right, it will die:( . It idles at 800RPM fine when level and increases to 1050 when the exhaust ports are out of the water. The floats in the carbs are not all exactly alike the are minor differences in their shape and color, the metal tab on some are brass and the others appear to be made of stainless or nickle plated brass they appear to have been replaced somewhere in the carbs lifetime. I canít seem to find replacement Floats for this carb anywhere. the carbs are WH-27ís .
Anyone know where I can get replacement floats for a WH-27 carb?? I cant find them anywhere:confused:.
I have replaced the stator twice, trigger once(last time with CDI components nice! I noted quality of manufacture was present) rectifier once. Removed and cleaned the carbs 3 times. I was never able to get the boat up on plane with the first stator. After replacing it with a CDI stator I got it on plane once. I know that the switch boxes work or they donít. So im not going to replace them. The issues are not pointing to them. I installed an inline fuel filter in the sullpy fuel hose before the bulb, the second time I took the carbs off to clean them. I purged all the fuel lines and tank. Now, the last time I pain stakenly took 3 hours to set the 6 carb floats, WH-27ís. Now, this was the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> time I took the carbs off. I only ran the motor for 2 hours before removing them to set the 1/16" gap on the floats. (I found more crap in the carbs. after installing the inline fuel filter) My Seloc Manual instructs to set them to 1/16Ē movement. To Any one reading this, is this right? Sure looks real choked off to me. Allthough I noted a significant increase in power after following the float setup in the Seloc manual instructions.
Can any one get me good instructions on the proper procedure for setting the floats on these carbs. PLEASE!
The only thing that has made any real diffrence was when I monkeyed with the carbs the last time. I was perplexed because I was still finding crap in the carb! Small debris in the larger fuel brass venturi the smaller tube that leads up from the float chamber sets in. (The light came on! The oil injection system intersects the fuel line after the motor inlet. This had to be where the crap in the carbs was comming from. Or another thought.... the floats are flaking apart...kinda looked the same color as the floats, not sure yet. More to follow on thisÖ.) <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:pThe last time I removed and cleaned the carbs (I also removed the plugs and wiped them clean of the oil fouling) it got up on plane the first time. It worked well for the first 4 hours. Thought I had it licked. Then as the day went on it went back to doing the same thing. Untill it would continue to loose power at 1800 (9 miles per hour) and not get up on plane.
I have been playing around with the oil mixture. I had to insure that oil was getting in the system so I would mix fresh Mid grade 90 octaine gas with the 50:1 ratio of Mercury 2 stroke oil, I found the power head had more power. I know mixing the oil in the tank at 50:1 is not helping my plight. But what else can I do. I have not disconnected the oil system yet because itís there, and Id like to have it work right. The way it was designed to. The motor runs smother with more oil in the gas, but their is one problem with that. The spark plugs foul up quick. This itself ALSO causes loss of power.
I also believe this is another one of the contributing factors. Plug Fouling from excessive oil mixture.
After about 20 hours total running time, replacing most of the major ignition components. I have determined the only thing that has made a major difference in motor function was adjusting the carb floats. Then it dawned on me again. OIL! the oil system. When I went and checked the 3 gal oil tank while at the lake this last week. I found a thick coating of what appeared to be a vasoline on the main oil tank screen. A marine motor tech told me about the problem with TW-3 oil additive coagulating into a vasoline looking substance. He said to check and clean the screen before every outing. I removed all the old oil cleaned the screen it looked like someone smeared a thick coat of vasoline on the screen. I replaced all the old oil with new oil. Purged the old oil from the hoses and power head oil tank and the oil metering pump. This gunk was obviously causing oil flow blockages, in the oil delivery system. It would appear when this thick oil (vasoline looking stuff) broke off the screen and entered the system it would clog up the oil pump and eventually enter the jets in the carbs and I would loose power untill it was flushed out with gas over time as fule passed thru. I would regain power again and get up on plane. It would them plane fine for a while then start the bogging all over again till the plugs were so fouled it would not idol right.<O:p</O:p
But in the mean time im running 50:1 oil in the gas. This rich oil mix plus when the oil distribution system decides to work right it pumps more oil into the motor making the mixture about 25:1 ratio. Yeah real smokey and rough running. I believe the oil delivery system is a major factor hear. Still have to investigate the oil pump further but lack the knowledge. Seloc is limited in this area. This is where the masters of Powerheads come in. HELP!!
after thoughts:<O:p</O:p
****When I trailered the boat, remove and clean the plugs, put it back into the water it would plane fine, the first time every time. Then after running it a while plugs would get oil fouled and loose power. (I know to rich oil mixture)
With this being the case I truly believe this problem lies with a motor that is extremely sensitive to the oil mixture it is receiving from the system.
The factory specs say oil metering system is designed to give 50:1 at idol and 100:1 at WOT.
With that in mind I know that the 25:1 ratio fuel/oil would foul the plugs fast at WOT and thus I would get a loss of power.<O:p</O:p
So, the problem lies hear. If I run the motor and im not adding oil to the fuel I risk power head burn out. If I run the motor with 50:1 gas oil mix and the oil pump decides to pump oil I will foul the spark plugs.
I attempted to run it on one tank without mixing oil. I ran like spottering and back filing. after 5 min of that I added oil 50:1 to the fuel tank and it smoothed out. <O:p</O:p
.....Grumble.....makes trouble shooting a genuine task!
I believe im on the right track. But time will only tell.<O:p</O:p
I have not read any definite resolution to this problem on any site anywhere on the net. <O:p</O:p
I believe it lies in the oil disturbtion system or Carbs or both. The powerhead is extremely sensitive to the oil mixture being pumped into the motor.<O:p</O:p
Light mixture oil (thin) it labors to hard and fails to get on plane. To much oil and i get loss of power from plug fouling.
As far as the cylinder compressions go. I know for a fact, as long as the cylinders do not have more than 20 psi difference, the power head is fine. Mine are as follows 82, 82, 78, 76, 80, 81. thats PSI. they stayed the same after i ran it without mixing the oil in the fuel:eek: . Yeah I checked em again. woof..... I was relieved:rolleyes: . I know these compression readings are not real high. I've also been told when new, they normally registered 165 to 180PSI. Is this part of my problem?
When it dose plane, it screams and flies at 45 MPH at 5000RPM with plenty of power:D . (thats screaming and flying to me)<O:p</O:p
I notice more power with fresh clean plugs. That donít last long. How do I trouble shoot the oil system with out adding oil to the gas? And or with out shutting down the oil injection system.<O:p</O:p
I donít want to burn out this power head trying to isolate an oil delivery system. Thatís why im mixing the oil the way I am.<O:p</O:p

Forgive me if i ramble.. I'm just perplexed.:confused: :confused: :confused: :(
<O:p</O:p
<O:pI will not give up on this powerhead yet it shows promises of a good working motor.</O:p
<O:p</O:p
Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Any of you master techs please feel free to jump right in. Iím all ears!

If you have any suggestions, that i get another motor, you can mail me a check and i'll be glad to purchase one. Just joking... I really dont want to hear that.
<O:p</O:p
Thanks for your time and help.<O:p</O:p

I havent tried changing to a 17p or 15p prop. Are these to small for this motor?? Should I even attempt it.
the 19p I have I can only get 4800 to 5000 PRM. Should I try a diferent prop before I have this worked out??
Im really not conserned with a lightning hole shot. I just want to get the boat on plane everytime. Not hear the bog out at 1800RPM. Humm somthing to think about. humh?
<O:p</O:p
Dave_hunting for a solution for this Power head that still has some life in it.

CharlieB53
07-25-2007, 12:25 PM
I really hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but.......

Compression, or lack of, is your major problem.

You have a very good ignition system to get it to start with compression that low.

Generally Mercs/Mariners do not want to start when pressure start dropping under 100 and progressively get worse is the rings/cylinder wear.

Mic the cyl's and pistons and see if you are lucky enough to be within spec to re-ring and restore compression, otherwise bore and fit new pistons and it should run like a new engine.

shooter1
07-25-2007, 01:11 PM
It sounds like a tired motor to me. One thing that I have found is that different compression guages read differently. I use one that doesn't have a hose on it and it screws into the spark plug hole. I think that you have some carb issues with the floats. Does it have the round floats? If it does I might have an old set of carbs. Where in NM do you live? I live in the Panhandle of Texas and fish Ute all the time.

Shooter1

Dave_hunting
07-25-2007, 03:34 PM
Thanks for the response.
Im in Albuquerque, I fish Ute as well. Allways clean up when I fish there. Cought 8 small mouth there 14" to 19". 7 walleye 16 to 20" range, the last time we visited UTE.

The carb floats are kinda square. Attached is a mechanical break down of one of my carbs. Sorry I dont have a better Pic.

I would agree with the other post that the compression is low. I ran my last mercury for 10 years. Th compression was 85 and it stayed there till i sold it. I take great care with my motors and give em a lot of TLC. I never had any real problems with compression before as long as the were within 20 PSI of one another.

I have been told by several marine mechanics more copmression is desireable but the motor should function with these PSI's.

Ring set would'nt be a bad idea. Hone out the cylinders. Replace the reeds set. If i go that far I should just rebuild the whole power head.

I just bought the boat in May. It was missing the stator and other components. When I installed the new one, Since the old one was missing. I orientated it as all others i have ever owned. wiring harness aligned up with the triger. The ignition system is great...now no real problems to report. Plenty of spark.

I have no base board to start from, since I have no history with this boat motor combination. The broken LU that came with it had a 19p prop attached. I have to ASSUME. ( i hate having to use that word ) It operated fine on the 19p before the former owner broke the lower unit.

The motor sat in SC for over 6 years before i bought it.

Like any other motor that has set for a long period of time, rust on the rings might be a big contributing factor. I was hoping to run it rich on oil for a couple of tanks to help rid the problem. I can see no scoring or pitting on the cylinder walls as of yet.

I had to replace the LU when I bought it. I matched what I had with a simular alike gear ratio of. 2:1. Im starting to think that a 17p or 15p prop might be in order. If the motor is tired I could alieviate some of the load by reducing my prop pitch. Since I can only achieve 4800 RPM at WOT, with the 19p Prop I have on it now. It is a thought.

I'm almost convinced 90% of this problem is, I did not set the floats correct. The manual for this type of carb says thier should be 1/16" float movement. That is measured from the bottom of the float bowl to the upper surface of the float rim. Other posts say the float settings are not critical. I did see a significant, about 50% increase in power. It Idles better and when I do get it on plane it Hauls bASS.

Still trying to figure out his puzzle

shooter1
07-25-2007, 03:57 PM
Dave,
When I set the floats on that carb I make sure that the float should be level or parallel with the gasket surface. I think that the fall on the float which you are setting @ 1/16" is not enough. Those floats should travel a 1/4" on the end opposite the pin. I don't have one here to look at right now but that is the best I can remember. Also do you have the idle stabilizer still on this engine? You might need to do the basic check the linc & sync.

Shooter1

Propster
07-25-2007, 04:50 PM
Thicker oil mix acts like a smaller jet to a point. More oil thickens the viscosity, so less fuel can get through the jets, thus leaning the mixture. Unfortunatly, too much oil with not enough spark will result in oil fouled plugs.

Are you checking your float level by holding the bowl upside down and looking at how much the float is showing past the float bowl surface? Should see 1/16 of the float sticking out past the float bowl surface.

What are you getting for compression?

EDIT - I missed the compression readings 82, 82, 78, 76, 80, 81. That is pretty low but even, however, 6200 feet is very high. Not sure what that would calculate out to at sea level.

j_martin
07-25-2007, 05:31 PM
My opinion, may or may not be worth much

Compression that low probably wouldn't even start. Be sure your gauge is correct. If it is that low, that is your primary problem.

It'll run 100 to 1 at idle, 50 or so at WOT. If the engine is in good shape, it should burn 50:1 Plus vro with no problem, in fact that is required for break in. I usually mix about an ounce of oil per gallon of gas in my main tank just for insurance. Don't seem to have any oil related problems.

If the oil is that gunky, it's gotten contaminated, probably with a little water. Bacteria eat the oil, live in the water, and make the vaseline like gunk. Goes for both gas and oil, but oil is worse. I clean mine out thoroughly as annual maintenance, filter the oil I salvage from the tank, and use that for my thin pre-mix.

I think the original floats were foam. They are completely junk. There is an aftermarket float available that's pretty good. I forget who makes it.

If it were mine, I'd start with general health. If it's tight and has good compression, set the carbs bone stock, clean it all up and go through a formal link and sync, then see what ya got.

Obviously, when you have chit getting in the carbs and plugging things up, adjustments are mute. It just don't make a bit of difference to worry about adjustments till it's cleaned up and staying clean.

hope it helps
John

Dave_hunting
07-25-2007, 06:29 PM
J Martin

Yes thank you. I'll check my compression gage. Because this motor definatly starts and idles like a top. It defanetly starts and runs when its has a fresh set of plugs and good fuel flow.

I am going to replace the main oil resevour and hoses. Im thinking the junk was comming from the oil resevour and or lines. Ive alleady removed all hoses on the power head, replaced them, making sure they were in thier right and proper spots. I will pull the oil pump off the power head and clean it good. Im gonna replace the oil system check valve on the power head, just because I can. I'll go thru the fuel pump to make sure I sandwitched it togeather right.

Im on the virge of a good running motor i can feel it.

I was using Champion plugs. Im switching to the recommended NKG BU8H.

I'll see if the local prop shop will sell or trade me a used prop for testing. A 17p and or a 15p. I hate blowing cash on a test.

Any one got the factory, correct instructions for setting the carbs?? I used the Seloc manual but ther not carb specific. As far as I can see they are semi rare. WH-27's

and any information any one can give me on aftermarket floats would be nice.

I look at it this way. If after all this I have to overhaul the powerhead. I got everypart under the sun to make it work properly.

Dave_hunting
07-25-2007, 08:38 PM
Shooter,

No i removed that POS. As soon as I found out from talking to a motor head he said most preformance boaters ripped it off and caned it. So did I. When it was connected, the lowest I could get it to idle was 900RPM and it would bounce between 900 and 1300.
Once I disconnected the idle stabalizer it settled and idled at 800 RPM smoothly.

Dave_hunting
07-25-2007, 09:02 PM
I checked link and sync again. The timing is correct 11 degrees ATDC and WOT is at 18 Degrees BTDC, with the butterflies wide open. Right on the money. I'll start with the carbs, i'll remove them this weekend and readjust them. I will set the float fall, parrell with the gasket seat, with the bowls set upside down.

I am an HVAC technition and your right my pressures are diffrent up hear. probably 10 to 12 PSI diffrent on the top.
A good vacume at sealevel is 29 (28.5) Hear a good vacume is 27 on a good day. On the other hand it is harder to achieve higher pressures up hear too. they will appear a little low to those that live in other lower locations of the country. Yes my house is setting at 6200 feet. So most of my adjustments are set hear at the house. When I get to the nearset lake I can open the motor up, Santa Rosa Lake, it's at 4600 feet. It may mot sound like much, but I have to fiddle with all my motors when I get to the lake so they idle right. It normal for me.
My last motor was a 1983 merc 80, the compressiom on it was 80,80,80 and it worked for me for 10 years with no problem.

Dave_hunting
07-25-2007, 09:27 PM
J Martin

Your opinion and all others opinion are welcome and valued by me!!
And much appreciated! :)

I've enjoyed reading all your guys posts over the last 2 months. It only took my stuborn Bass 2 months to start asking questions. I wanted to collect as much data as I could before posting questions.
I made a go of it with only the help of a book. Most of the time it works. This time im banging my head on the wall!!
My Seloc manual dont give me and feedback when I got questions!

The motor starts and runs now, I see progress. But it just dont run right....yet. It didnt run at all when I got it. As this goes I will continue to post, till I get it fixed. Dont get boored with me guys. Put on those thinking caps and bare with me. I need all input and will consider all sugestions.
It's just a motor! A man built it. And another man can fix it, that man could be me.

Dave

shooter1
07-25-2007, 09:58 PM
Dave,
With the stabilizer off you need to up your WOT advance to no more than 25 before. I usually go for 23 for insurance. I think you will see a difference in your motor with an extra 6 degrees of advance. I had a motor that was dogging last month that I changed the timing to 23 and he thought that he had a different motor. Before you make any adjustment be sure and verify tdc with a dial indicator and your flywheel cover pointer is correct.

Shooter1

Dave_hunting
07-26-2007, 06:20 PM
Shooter<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Thanks for your input. Maybe when I get this thing together. If I get this thing going we'll see about meeting at UTE Lake. We'll tear up the fish and have some more fish stories to tell. I forgot to tell you about the 8 lb 23" Walleye I caught at Conchas, on the 17th of July. I got Pictures!!! <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Iím using a good mic, It is precise. And have verified twice that TDC is 0 and the .463 mark was right on!<o:p></o:p>
Ill set the WOT to 23 BTDC and verify the 11 ATDC at idle stop. I'll have the carbs off and clean them again tonight, and re-adjust the floats. Clean out the oil resevour and hose.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Iím really not familiar with the Advanced Oil Delivery System.<o:p></o:p>
QUESTION: should the advanced oil system hoses be as short as possible. Like you do a fuel line. It looks like i got 4 to 5 feet extra hose thats not really needed. Can I shorten them, without disrupting the system?<o:p></o:p>
At these higher elevations I know from experience I have always make the fuel hose as short as possible, because its harder pull fuel thru a small hose at higher elevation. Just wondering.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
If I can get it this thing 100% clean, and everything back together. I'll talk the wife into a trip to Cochiti Lake this weekend (45 miles north of Albuquerque). We'll see soon if these tweaks work. <o:p></o:p>
Im itching to get it squared away. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Im still looking for a good compression gage. I'll go to Napa and see what they got.

shooter1
07-27-2007, 08:40 AM
The lenght of the hose is not critical, what is critical is NO SHARP BENDS OR KINKS and make sure all ends are tye wrapped. To me I want just enough to be able to move a little without disconnecting.

Shooter1

j_martin
07-27-2007, 10:40 AM
Dave,
The Mercury part number for the new float is 1395-9267 NLA

I found one new old stock at twin city outboard . 14 bucks

http://www.twincitymarine.com

952 496 1951

GLM is supposed to be making replacement floats.
P/n 77280

http://www.glmmarine.com

I haven't found any yet.

The old ones were a brown foam chit. The new ones are a blond hard plastic, and aparently never fail.

hope it helps
John

Dave_hunting
07-28-2007, 09:48 AM
J Martin

Awesome! I'll contact then right away and pick up 6 if they got em.

Got a difrent compression guage. and muy pressures are reading diffrent again. #1=75, #2= 90, #3=88, #4 =90, #5=85, #6= 90.

All port side cylinders read 90 and the Starbord side are Chit, that reading of 75 on #1 is not good. I can see some slight ring scoring on about 1" wide on the top surface of this cylinder. The others are as smooth as a baby's bottom.
Any one know about these guys?
2675.00 for a rebiuld and free shipping, with a Life time warranty.
http://www.boatpartstore.com/pwarranty.asp
sounds pretty good to me.

Or could i rebuild this my self? Im not afraid to. Weighing the headache and the rebuild cost and warranty.

CharlieB53
07-28-2007, 01:48 PM
Altitude differences, good point!

Those compression #'s at low elevations would be serious problem

Jetting could be an issue, you''l have to check spark plug and piston domes for indications if changes should be made.

Stay with the carbs and timing adjustments, find whats right for your elevation.

Point to watch for, the 'junk' you keep finding in the carbs. I find the alcohol in the fuel down here attacks the surface layer of the fuel pump diaphragm, just enough to cause very small black 'flakes'. Not enough to makke it leak but enough to restrict jets or stick in the seat and flood a carb. Either rebuild the pump annually or install a small in-line filter after the pump.

shooter1
07-30-2007, 10:54 PM
Dave,
That is a steel sleeved motor if no one has changed the power head. You could have the one bad hole bored and put in a bigger slug and freshen up the rings on the other 5 fairly cheap. I'm usually skeptical on lifetime warranty claims. I've been in business for 27 yrs. building hydraulic cattle chutes that I feel are pretty bullet proof but I guarantee I have sold chutes to people who could demolish a 125# anvil in a sandbox with a glass tack hammer. I might have a couple of usable pistons over at my boat house. I've been thinking about the elevation factor and I don't think it would be a very measurable amount of difference in pressure. The compression guage that I use is a Sierra 18-9800 and you can get them from NAPA but they aren't cheap but they are small. This is a Mercury Substitute. NAPA uses these numers, tell them it is in the watercraft book. You can also get other parts there to, for convience it's worth it to pay a little more. You should still have my phone number if I can help.

Shooter1

Dave_hunting
07-31-2007, 11:56 PM
J Martin
Thanks for the tip. I found and ordered 6 floats today for the carbs.
from
http://www.marinewholesale.com/
they are a GLM distribuitor.

I set the floats level with the bowls up side down. no sugnificant change.

I re checked the compressions with another guage. 1=75, 2 =90, 3=88, 4=90, 5= 88, 6=90.

PSI's came up some on 5 cylinders. #1 is still at 75 and when I inspected #1 with a micro extention light i can see 1" wide swath of ring scoring on the piston wall. the others cylinders I can see no scoring. But I believe a rebuild is imminent for this powerhead.

Dave_hunting
07-31-2007, 11:59 PM
You guys fimiliar with these guys???
http://www.boatpartstore.com/powerhead.asp
This is the best deal I can find. with a lifetime warranty. yes lifetime. What do you think???
Or should I just rebuild it my self????
Looking for sugestions. 2675.00

CharlieB53
08-01-2007, 06:28 AM
I hate to be the voice of Doom and Gloom, but......

There is no free lunch, (except down at the missionn)

What appears too good to be true often is.

Read the fine print, specifically, what's NOT covered.

Overheat, lean cylinder, detonation

Which is exactly what kills outboards

When things go wrong, and they very clearly will not cover it.

They may do a fine job on their rebuilds, and their price certainly is well below my shop rate, but.....

To decide to use them based on warranty alone isn't going to give you the protection you may thought you would be getting.

ANY reputable shop will stand behiind their work, materials and workmanship.

None of us can cover overheating, detonation, or a lean carb, which is why we all are so strict about rebuildling fuel pumps, carbs and water pumps with EVERY rebuild.

It's just the nature of the beast, 2 - strokes are like ticking bombs, as long as the fuel (quality and carburation) , the cooling, the timing, and the load, remain within reason, the clock just keeps ticking away.

But skip your maintenance and let the carbs get dirty or an impeller get a little too old.........

BOOM, the clock runs out. No warning, and no time to turn off the alarm.

Some of my salt-water customers change impellers, T-stat and fuel pump diaphragms, EVERY year, just to be sure, and carb cleaning every other year, same reason.

Maintenance, it's the ONLY insurance you can get, that works.

shooter1
08-01-2007, 12:11 PM
I would rebuild it myself as opposed to buying the reman. A couple of years ago I was looking at a reman from Fl. The core charge was $600.00 and it was going to cost me $500.00 to send it to them. I like to know what is in my motor both good and bad. When I blew my motor up 3 yrs. ago it was going to take $3600.00 for a powerhead and I put 1 together for around $1200.00. I like paying me better than someone else.

Shooter1

Dave_hunting
08-03-2007, 10:30 PM
Shooter<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I agree with you 100%. You talked me in to it! Rebuild project #1 1984 Mariner 150 in motion.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I bought the zip lock bags to keep track and store bolts. I will take detailed Digital Pic of the entire Power head before I disassemble it. <o:p></o:p>
I'll ask t-rex what he knows about these carbs. If I should just replace them with a different carb or just stick with these.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I will post pics of any thing I find wrong with the cylinders, pistons....ect.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Iím ahead of time I know hole #1 will need to be bored out.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Other than that, I'll crack open this metal nut and see what there is to see what needs to be discarded and what is still good. <o:p></o:p>

I got my " pound torque wrench today. 24 bucks today at Harbor freight tools.
<o:p></o:p>
Dave

Dave_hunting
08-25-2007, 10:12 PM
Thank you to everyone who posted on this post. After (in not wanting to believe it) $1200 in parts before posting this. It cames down to compression. If ya aint at least 100 PSI across all holes, or have a 15 psi diffrence in PSI between holes. You can probably look foward to rebuilding that power head.
Valueable lesson 1.
If your moror is running, and after your first trip out in the season. You have lost power, check your compression. If is lower than the previous year. Consider to take the time and investigate and repair the problem before it puts unnecessary wear on the power head. Costing lots more dollars non of us have. If there is a loss of power it can usually be identified. If you know what your looking for.
I didnt and now with the help of all of you posters hear. We pin pointed the problem and it was low compression. I didnt want to hear that. In this i really did'nt. But in the end, if it looks like a turd and smells like a turd. It's a turd. I wanted to polish it up and try to make it somthing it was not. In the end, it was still a turd.
I have considered rebuilding. But hear in Albuquereue, the cheapest boring i could find was $60 per blind hole to bore. Another 95.00 ea for 6 new over sized pistions. (found out it was allready rebuilt once before.) It comes down to getting the most for your (MY) buck. And think i can find a cheaper solution. I'll find another motor with less dammage and start over!
I just wanted to say thank you again for your time and wisdom in this matter. Theres a special place in heaven for those who give time energy and advice selflessly.
This post needed and ending. I'll let you all know how I overcame the pooped out powerhead.

I can only tell you, your all awesome. Thanks again!

Dave_hunting
10-04-2007, 02:21 PM
UPDATE,

Got the power head off and broke down, it don't look so bad, honed all cylinders, replacing 2 pistons and needle bearings.
I'll be reassembeling it this week. and mabe see some water next week end. I'll keep this thread going untill the problem is solved.

Many thanks to Shooter1 who has been a great help and has led me through this rebuild.

CharlieB53
10-05-2007, 08:19 PM
Like we always say, Don't know for sure til I take it apart.

Sometimes we get lucky, New rings on CLEAN ringlands for the rest of them and you're good to go!

Glad to hear it.

Oil it well, break it in carefully, like a NEW MOTOR

Enjoy, and appreciate your sweat, you've earned it.

CharlieB53
10-05-2007, 08:52 PM
Dave,

Just went back and re-read all posts.

Fuel Pump!!!!!!!
Alcohol degrades the diaphragm and it begins to 'flake' itty bitty black pieces off and they get into the carbs.

Many engines I've placed an in-line filter between the pump and carbs to stop this before it happens, todays fuel it's just a matter of time, plan on re-doing that pump at least every other year if not sooner, it's cheap maint.

Generally it is good insurance to rebuild fuel pumps AND water pumps with motor builds, you don't want anything to go wrong with your fresh engine.

An old guy once was quoted as saying ALWAYS mix your tank about 100 to 1 as insurance against the oil system failing. I really should start doing that myself.

Carb floats, holding the carb perfectly level, UPSIDE DOWN, the float should be perfectly parralell with the bowl base. Float drop is how far down the float hangs with the carb turned right side up. Just about enough to
A. touch the bowl IF IT IS A SOLID FOAM float
B. NOT touch if it is a hollow float, don't want to wear a hole in it and have it sink!

Take care of it and it will work just the way you've built it.

Dave_hunting
10-28-2007, 05:12 PM
Update:

Tear down went well, rebuild went smooth with the super advice I got from Shooter1. (yer da man!)

Put it in the water, and ...... Same chit.

OK what in the world could it be.. We went over every thing.

I stopped and started from the beginning......
Went over every thing...twice... looked at some other minor things we didn't check the first time (IE bayonet, fuel lines, fuel tank, spark at high speed) I decided to check them all just for the peace of mind.

When I found this web page on a whim. http://www.dorthe.homepage.dk
It's titled Every Thing You Need To Know About Propellers.
Third link down is:
If you want the small Excel spreadsheet for Speed/Prop estimation (http://www.dorthe.homepage.dk/speedpropcalculator.xls)
I was talking to shooter and we were banging our what ifs. (I kept thinking as I have before.) Is the prop pitch right? Well that was something to think about. Shooter1 and I had talked about the prop last week and it got me going on that again. So after looking, I found something VERY significant.
My boat weighs 1400, motor 385, full tank of fuel 138, batteries 90 lbs, Trolling motor 35. = 2048
5 persons me, wife, 3 sons = 785 + 2048 = 2833
dint forget 150 lbs equipment for a gross total of 2988
plug the following numbers in this prop selection spread sheet.
150 hp
2988 Gross weight
5500 max RPM
2.0 gear ratio
My boat bottom is not flat and not a true V. its a mod V
Plug in all those numbers and you get a 15.4 for a V and 17.1 pitch for nearly flat. Since I'm trying to push it with a 3 blade 13" 19 Pitch. So I'm thinking 16 should do it.
This motor runs flawlessly now, out of the water on muffs. NO hesitation. When in water it works good at idol and trolling speeds. When you try to advance the throttle it bogs down. To much Pitch? Trying to get out of the hole and cant turn the prop because of the weight?
So according to the link above I'm over pitched.
I want to go and fish, Not scream and fly! So I'll try my hand with a 16 pitch prop and see what I can see.

I'll keep posting untill it works or I burn it to the ground. This post will some day have an ending! One way or another!

j_martin
10-29-2007, 09:42 AM
Sounds like a good place for a high five prop. Ventilated to let the engine spool up quickly when ya can it, 5 blades biting to dig the hole and climb out of it.

On my bass bote, which is probably about 1800-2000 lbs, XR4 (1.78 geerz) 24 p prop, low 60's top end, jumps out like a rabbit. With a 22 p, will do it and tear the arms off'n 'bout 4 skiiers too. Neither prop is pristine, both are work props. When I can it, it spools up about 3500 rpm, then all hell breaks loose behind the boat.

On the junk in the fuel. Alcohol tears up some of the old composite fuel tanks. I had fuel troubles with mine. Tank was fine, chit in the fuel (white almost invisible sludge), bad fuel pump, bad hoses, bad bayonet. Filter plugging. Wound up putting in Genuine Murkery fuel line, bypassed the bayonet, fixed the fuel pump, threw out the Merkury fuel filter, put in a Racor water seperator/filter and a Racor vent valve. No more problems.

hope it helps
John

dompie99
10-29-2007, 10:32 AM
My two cents if i may.

My Mariner V6 had a '' LOBOTOMY'' done to it by removing the oil injection system completely and made a Alu. plate to cover the hole in the block and removed the sensor unit and module. ( beeper module )

I run 40:1 oil mixture ALL the time with premium gas ( 92 octane )

Timing is an issue but you've made it ok according to your posts (.463'')

Carb,s floats are also with the sync of the carbs some thing that can't be forgotten.... but you made it right also according to your previous posts...

If your plugs get fouled, ( oily look and feel ) compression might ( i said might ) be one of the issue but tinner air could lead to lower compression reading all in all, but let's assume it could be right, foulled plugs if the spark is right and strong could only lead to over rich oil mixture. I've ran a looper for 5 to 6 years with about 80 to 85 PSI compression at 460 feet of elevation and never had even a nick of problem as to plus fouling. Small engine on a weed cutter has about 75 psi with a 50:1 oil ratio mixture and they don't foul a plug at all don't they ??

I will look for the right procedure in a Merc manual for a WMH-28 or 29 and post it if you want, i'd be glad to ......

Have fun ...

CharlieB53
10-29-2007, 06:29 PM
Dave, Don't spend anything yet, you MAY have to downsize the prop but for now there is a couple of tests that we skipped because we ASSUMED things were OK. Often NOT

How big of a gap can you get testing spark with the spark plugs out and the leads connected to a variable gap spark testor?

This IS A CRITICAL TEST.

Reasoning

A weak or even partiallly weak ignition will only let the engine rev just so far under load then hang, bog, and die.

7/16 hot blue arc is the MINIMUM

many CD ignitions will throw 3/4 inch and MORE

Someone will find the links to troubleshooting ignition problems but start witih the spark gap, it will tell you a lot.

Dave_hunting
10-31-2007, 06:26 PM
Yes your right, Shooter1 also has the same concerns as you.

Im working on getting a spark gap checking tool.

He recommended testing the spark strength on all 6.

I gont have a tester. Im currently looking for one hear localy and thru ebay.

For now I can only assure you I got spark on each hole as to the strength.... I can not verify as of yet. But i'll for sure check it.

Dave_hunting
11-13-2007, 11:03 AM
Tested spark with set gap spark tester at about 1/2 inch. I have spark on all six cylinders. #3 and #4 were not as strong as I would have liked. dark blue but visiable. #1, 2, 5, 6 brilliant bright light blue. I disconnected the oil module and the idol stabilizer completly eliminating them from the process. Both have been removed from the motor for now. This is to limit any possibility of those items interfearing with the diagnoses.
Took it to the lake and ....... same thing. I was able to twice give it full throtle and then i pump the enricher (choke) and got it up on plane. Were thinking fuel now.
I used a small 6 gallon remote fuel tank with no change, and it proved that the main tank is not the problem.
I will rebuild the fuel pump hear again and this time I will replace the check valves.
I have 3 of 6 plastic carb floats. When I get all 6 floats I will rebuild the carbs for the 4 th time. Im still looking. I found 1 coil on ebay and Im looking for another. When I get 2 coils I will replace #3 an #4 and re test it. (Im purchasing a CDI spark gap tester found one for 41.00 and found a DVA adapter for my Fluke for 25.00 on ebay) I need to test the stator High and low speed windings when I get the DVA tester.
Still lots to check before I can say exactly what the problem is for sure.

j_martin
11-13-2007, 12:44 PM
Once I replaced the old hard black rubber impulse hose from the crankcase to the fuel pump on my XR4 with a nice shiney soft new clear fuel hose.

Damned thing crapped out at WOT. The hose soaked up most of the impulse energy going to the fuel pump.

Put the old black one back one back on. OK

Sometimes it's the little things.:D
John

moneyhole
11-13-2007, 04:23 PM
My two cents.
I am a novice mechanic when it comes to outboards.
I had a similiar problem on my 1984 Merc 150.
After rebuilding the carbs, checking the fuel system, checking the spark, etc, the problem turned out to be rotten wiring in the ignition collar ring(?) on the top of the power head. The motor ran great at idle and started perfectly, but the boat would not push over and get on plane.
I replaced the old wiring with new wiring, and the motor really came to life. Throttle response was instantanous, and I was able jump up on plane.
Sometimes the wires look good on the outside, but there is enough rot there to hinder performance.
Kevin

CharlieB53
11-13-2007, 09:07 PM
Idle mixture adjustment is also very important. Many beginners make the mistake of adjusting to best idle and stop there. That is too lean for a 2 stoke, it needs almost 1/4 turn more fuel to provide the richness necessary for acceleration, just remember this do not have an accelerator pump! Too lean an idle will bog on acceleration, but if you baby the throttle, increasing just a skoosh at a time it will eventually get up and get on a plane and go.

Dave_hunting
11-18-2007, 12:36 AM
NEW DATA:


OK I made a DVA adapter for my digital multimeter. I took some stator voltage readings, Remember its a new stator.

13 and 13 high speed windings and 24.8 and 24.8 Low speed windings.
OK So now we have found somthing really significant. High windings should be 20+ V and the low windings should be 180+ V. According to the CDI chart.
Given I got this motor with the fly wheel on it (stator was missing). I had to assume it belonged on it. It is Green. I am told that this is off a 200 HP motor with a 16 amp system. Hummm not good.
This system is a 9 amp system. Shooter1 is helping me out and is sending me a red flywheel, and another stator he had lying arround. I am going to replace the Green Flywheel with the Red Flywheel first and re test the stator windings again.
I understand that the high speed windings are suppose to kick in arround 1600 RPM,(im bogging at arround 1400) Im thinking that since the motor needs that 180V spark to grt it up over the hump. Then The 20 V windings can manage after the motor gets up to speed.
We'll see...............

The continuing SAGA of the 1984 150 V6 Mariner continues. Your guys sugestions are appreciated, and i do read them and take them in to consideration. The wire harness was somthing I was contemplating, this was before finding the stator's current test condition.
I believe we have identified a GREAT problem that just might be the root of the problem. As Charlie B53 said test it first! before you spend any more money! Thanks Charlie.

Dave_hunting
11-18-2007, 12:52 AM
This motor has 3 x 2 barrel carbs, It has no mixture adjusting. It's a strange design. This particular Carb don't have a Vent bowl jet, it only has Idol jets and main jets. No adjustment at all. Well not really true, you can swap out jets for bigger or smaller sizes. Thats the only adjustment possiable on the WH-27 carb.

j_martin
11-19-2007, 09:07 AM
No vent jets is a normal setup on some of the WH's. If the jets are stock, which is .064 and .054 on the 27 I think, and the rest of the motor is normal, it should run street OK. Certainly not bog down or stall trying to get going.

It might be worth taking a quick look to make sure someone hasn't changed them for some reason.

hope it helps
John

Dave_hunting
11-25-2007, 08:03 PM
UPDATE!

Bought a Fluke 87 MULTI meter with peak max voltage (PV). My DAV peak voltage reader did not work right so....any way. The fluke works fine. Max Hi speed winding (red and Red/white wires) voltage should be 20+V and Low side windings (blu and blu/white wires) should read 180+ volts.
Hear are the test results from my CDI stator:

Red 31.0V
Rde white 29.9V
Blue 221.4V
Blue White 237.2

Hear are the results of the output wires from the switchboxes to the Coils (Green wire) should read be 180V. Measured at idol on a hose w/muffs at 800RPM. Tested holding for 5 seconds
1 136
2 213
3 105 (after swapping out a coil 131.5)
4 289
5 221
6 180

again holding probe on the lead for 30 seconds
1 163
2 346
3 152 (peak with new coil)
4 289
5 164.5
6 210

1 3 5 are measuring under the 180V spec. Were thinking Switchboxes.

Were leaning toward the switchboxes.
After thoughts, After every thing I have done I've learned that these test should have been done in the beginning and I believe it would have saved me a lot of time in the guessing game. If it were not for the fact I didnt have a Peak Voltage reading device. It would have been done sooner. Chalk it up to learning.
The bright side is I have better compression and a motor that has been gone thru throuly, step by step. Cant think of a better way to get to know my motor.

I'll keep ya updated

Dave_hunting
03-05-2008, 03:22 PM
The Rock sold me a whole bunch of carbs Im gonna part out. (Plastic FLOATS!)

I just placed an order for 6 new coils and 2 switchboxes. And While I was at it I got 6 new plug wires.

I'll up date you with the results.


Dave

Dave_hunting
03-08-2008, 08:59 AM
Friday 3-7-08

Parts arrived at 3:30
Parts Installed by 5pm

spark gap test was great, strong spark across 1/2 gap.

Going to the lake on 3-8-08 to test her out.

more to follow.

shadowman
03-08-2008, 09:49 PM
I just had to post here so I can follow your outcome. Hold your head up brother! You will surely find your problem.

You are getting some good advice from some great folks.

Props to Scream and Fly!

Dave_hunting
03-10-2008, 11:05 AM
Yes! We have progress!

All parts installed, Strong ignition system.

I can say we allready knew, I was having more than one problem. With the Ignition system now corrected. The issue at hand now is fuel delivery.
I went to the lake this week end and ((SIDE NOTE)cought 18" 6 Lb Spotted Bass, and a 17" 5 lb Spotted Bass) when I first started out, I got on the throttle and it bogged down. Not the same as before, now you can feel the power in the motor. It bogged at about 1300 RPM.
I started again and babyed it up to 1200rpm, when it hit 1300rpm, I pushed in on the fuel richner (choke), at the same time moved the throttle open. I got POWER! I have to hold the choke in till 1800rpm or it will bogg down and die. If I dont move the throttle, with the choke on, It will die, when it then hits 1800rpm I have to let the choke go and the power head comes up on rpm and roar's to life! Consistantly getting the boat up on plane. The top GPS speed I got was 48MPH, and Max rpm of 5200.
I have a box of carbs and carb parts, I purchased from the ROCK, (thanks Rock!) im going thru this week. Hopefully I'll find 2 more plastic floats and get them re set and installed. Im also going to look for some .56 idol jets. The boat was set up for sea level with .54 idol jets installed.
The lakes I go to are from 7100 feet to 3700 feet in elevation. Right now with out the trolling plate it idols like crap. When I put the trolling plate down it is a bear to keep running. I have to tap the richner (choke) every few seconds to keep it going at trolling speed.
While at the lake the second day, I played arround with the throttle linkage adjustment, I adjusted it the best I could to get a better throttle response with the current issue at hand. After 2 hours at the dock I got it the best I could and set out to fish. I got on plane after choking and babing the throttle every time now. For the record that was about 30 times.
I checked the plugs and one is black, #6. not sure what thats about yet. The motor has about 20 hours on it now after the ring job I put in it.
I'll check compression this week and see where Im at.

OK, MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION >>>>

I will keep adding to this post as, issues arise, and get corrected. I'll continue to post results.

Next steps:
Check fuel flow volume after fuel pump
rebuild carbs and remove old foam floats, set up w/ newer plastic floats.
increase Idol jet size from .54 to .56

Back up 20 and punt!

Dave_hunting
03-10-2008, 11:46 AM
I just had to post here so I can follow your outcome. Hold your head up brother! You will surely find your problem.

You are getting some good advice from some great folks.

Props to Scream and Fly!

Thanks!
Shadowman,

I have to say, my hats off to Scream and Fly! I would not have gotten this far with out the advice I have recieved from all posts, weather relevant or not! Thank you everyone for all your input.
Especially, There is allways ONE person who stands out, and he has mentored me thru this. I allways give credit to who deserves it and that person is Shooter1.
Rande took the extra step, and time to help me out with advice in more ways than one. After exchanging phone numbers in the earlier stages of this adventure. His direction has been spot on. He lead me from a pretty sad motor, to motor with potential, its prooving to be a work in progress! But thats boating! I'll get all the issues worked out and as the boating world has it, I'll find another problem to fix!
( I.E.... like my trim/tilt up/down control switch, it stopped working yester day when trailering for the day, had to hot wire direct from the battery + to get the motor up and then down on the transom saver. I'll figure it out.)
He has tought me the meaning of BOAT! Break Out Another Thousand!
and the process of Hay! Thats the first stage of bull crap!

I give many Thanks to shooter1! And you know I really mean it!

But more than advice, and knowlege. I can say I have made a new friend.

Thanks to every one, for you input, From my vantage point this is what makes Screan and Fly so awesome!

YES SIR! From my point of view, It looks like it might be a real good fishing year after all!

David Borg
03-10-2008, 05:10 PM
If you are going to enlarge the idle jets you are going to lean down your idle .
With the type of problem you are facing I would go down 0.002 on the idle jets as it seems that your engine needs more fuel but before changing any jets I would install a fuel pressure gauge to make sure your carbs are getting enough fuel .


I would also check the plugs after wot run and make sure they are brown in colour ,if they are white your engine is running lean and you might stick a piston.

good luck and keep us posted

Dave_hunting
03-11-2008, 09:12 PM
If you are going to enlarge the idle jets you are going to lean down your idle.
With the type of problem you are facing I would go down 0.002 on the idle jets as it seems that your engine needs more fuel but before changing any jets I would install a fuel pressure gauge to make sure your carbs are getting enough fuel .


I would also check the plugs after wot run and make sure they are brown in colour ,if they are white your engine is running lean and you might stick a piston.

good luck and keep us posted

On the wh-27 when you install bigger jets = more fuel = richer. Right?

The manual calls for .054 at 0-2500 feet in elevation,
it says 2500-5000 go to .056 (.002 larger) for idol and .064 (.002 smaller) for mains.

I was just going to leave the mains alone.

David Borg
03-12-2008, 04:26 PM
On the idle side larger jets means more air so less fuel and smaller jets more fuel less air .

main jets work opposite the larger more fuel.

i would check fuel pressure first and also make sure you don t have the emultion tubes (the narrow long tapered tube in the carbs)partiallly blocked as once I had a similar problem with a 175 merc and they were the culprits .


just my 2 c
good luck

Dave_hunting
03-15-2008, 10:04 PM
On the idle side larger jets means more air so less fuel and smaller jets more fuel less air .

main jets work opposite the larger more fuel.

i would check fuel pressure first and also make sure you don t have the emultion tubes (the narrow long tapered tube in the carbs)partiallly blocked as once I had a similar problem with a 175 merc and they were the culprits .


just my 2 c
good luck

I found my trim/tilt short. It was located in the Quick Silver controler, where the wires come out of the controler to the handle. (what a pain in the bass) It's going to drive me to drink. I got it appart and, have had to replace all the wire going into the controller (Dry Rot).
I still need to conduct a fuel volume test.
No, emultion tube blockage, I have replaced all of the emultion tubes with Tygon last July. I have rebiuilt the carbs 4 times and soaked them in carb cleaner 3 times. There is no emultion blockage. The passages are clear with no unreal resistance.
I now have 6 plastic floats, enough replace all the crumbling old OEM foam floats in all my carbs. I got a box of carbs last november and have salvaged a crap load of jets and floats. I will install the floats with new nedles and jets this week (Idol jets only).
I rebuilt the fuel pump in November (for the 3rd time in 6 months) to include new check valves.
Now that the ignition system was replaced, I can get the boat up on plane quite easily. Which was near impossiable before. It's just a matter of getting the fuel issues worked out.
I have to get the controller issues worked out now before I go farther.

Dave_hunting
03-18-2008, 07:31 PM
Currently Im looking for a new Commander shift box with trim/tilt. My harness was so brittle it broke twice after dissassembly and reassemdly. Not to mention 3 plastic control parts that were found broken after third dissasembly.
I got the carbs off and cleaned them, new carb gasket kit, needles, and installed 6 plastic floats. Replaced the 6 jet plugs hold the main jets, they were torqued and twisted making the holes oval and contorted. I Reinstalled all of the main jets. Removed the .054. Idol jets and replaced them with .060. My house is at 6200 ft and yes I will be operating the boat at below 5000 but, I keep reading richer is better so (idol jets per the manual say 0-2500 take .054's, 2500-5000 +.002, and 5000-7500 +.002 again.
All 60's will do is make it rich. Richer means keeping money in my pocket. Not to worry though, I still have the 6 .054's (where I was before) and 6 .056's, and Will have 6 .058's before I leave to the lake. If .060's are to fat I'll just put in the .058's and try again. They can be installed / removed on the motor, with a little effort. I'll retime it again and give it the old link and sync. And try it again.
P.S.
Quick Silver commander TIP. Remove the complete controller trim/tilt harness and engine harness if your going to work on one. Trust me it will make it a lot easier to handle, Live and Learn.

The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter with every tweak.

Dave_hunting
03-18-2008, 07:42 PM
Almost forgot, before I head out to the lake I will conduct a fuel volume test.

mindblock
03-18-2008, 08:11 PM
Didn't read full post kinda long:confused: .. 90psi is the limit..if it cuts at midrange could be rich..when "warn" cuts a wot rich again.If psi is in specs..Buy new plugs and wot test...run full wot stop right there don't drive around and check color of tip of sparkplug..(some check shaft )2strokes need little darker than paper brown( I dont have charts google it) >>>then clean off plugs and try again if your tuning.

Or maybe your carbs need cleaning..or whatnot.

Dave_hunting
03-18-2008, 10:08 PM
Yes, I agree its long.....how do you think I feel????....Im on a mission Id Say!
Any way found this post on another site:

I have experienced this confounding issue with my Merc too. What I found was a tiny port in the main jet gland (fuel passage from bowl to venturi) had become clogged from winter rest. This port is essential to the atmospheric operation of this carb!
Remove the fuel bowl and main jet (only if it's in the very bottom of this passage). Look for a small port leading off at an angle, sometimes the casting will give an idea where it should be. Remember, this port is only a few thousanths of an inch. I ran a thin wire up there followed by carb spray followed by a healthy blast of air.
If you block the vent hole in the carb mount base and shoot air into the carb front vent hole you should get air flying out the main jet passage. If not it's still plugged.
I almost went to the rubber room on this one, but when I put it back on all worked grand!

Any one else weigh in on this?? I'll look em over I got em off right now i might as well.

Dave_hunting
03-20-2008, 10:53 PM
David Borg,

Thank you.
You got my atten. And I really think you helped solve this problem. And yes your right. Had I put in the altitude jets, I might have smoked the power head. It would have been far leaner. SO with that, and my last post got me thinking.
I'll soak the carb boddies in a bath for 24 hours or more each. It has to be the carbs not jetting right, every thing else checks out. Unless the last owner used hard steel wire thru the body, If I can get them clear and clean Im allmost certian It is the issue. we have looked at every thing twice, and all checks out.

LEGENDARY922
03-24-2008, 09:55 PM
I Have A 1984 Raycraft With Mariner 150 Ive Had It For About A Year. I Use It All The Time For Fishing Duck Hunting Partying You Name It I Use My Boat For It! It Generally Never Sits More Than A Month. It Took It Out The Other Day And It Would Not Build Up Speed Or Get On A Plane! Any Suggestions Iam A 21yr Old Outdoors Enthusiast With Very Little Money 2 Spend On It. However Iam Some What Mechaniclly Inclined! So Please Anyone Got Some Tips Or Suggestions Please Help!



Thank You
Casey

Dave_hunting
03-25-2008, 03:19 PM
Legendary,

Read the whole post. I was dealing with multiple problems at the same time. My compression was low, My spark was weak, I have spent right around 250.00 for 6 piston ring sets, 2 pistons and rod bearings. I went thru the power head, im starting to see some light.
I can get it up on plane consistantly. I just removed and cleaned the carbs for the 5th time, I've installed newer plastic floats in the carbs.
If you havent done so in a while start by rebuilding you fuel pump. cost 25 bucks for the kit w/new check valves.
Probably somthing minor. But check you compression. all holes should measure within 15psi of each other. If your highest compression hole is 15psi or more in than you lowest hole. you might need a rebuild. (worst case secerio)

Dave_hunting
04-01-2008, 10:31 AM
OK, :o

<O:p</O:pFound something new. The foam lining the motor cowling was dry rotted. I accidentally found it when I reached for the water hose at the rear of the starboard side, (it was leaking) When my hand brushed the foam, it left a trench in the foam and all the debris was on the back of my hand. This deterioration may explain all the chit I was finding in intake and carbs. I stripped all the foam off and cleaned the power head and motor housing of the debris that was everywhere. I took off the choke cover plate and there was some more debris in it.<O:p</O:p
Plastic floats installed, carbs cleaned AGAIN! ARGH! (I'll be a carb expert before this is over).<O:p</O:p
This dry rotting sound dampening insulation on the motor housing was just another little thing that was over looked. <O:p</O:p
I believe the Foam Crap getting sucked into the engine intake would cause a small problem! Another issue resolved. <O:p</O:p

Checked Fuel volume, 1/2 a quart in about 10 seconds.<O:p</O:p
Rebuilt/replaced commander controller. Trim /tilt wires broke at the handle, where it swivels on the controller. Installed new control cables for throttle and Shifter.<O:p</O:p
completed another Link and sync, set Timing and added a fresh set of plugs. (didnít need to replace them, I bought 3 sets, what the heck)<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I'll re post when I get back from the lake this weekend.<O:p</O:p

Dave_hunting
04-07-2008, 10:29 AM
Ok,
I used seafoam in the tank this time out to the lake. As the day went on I noticed a big diffrence in this power heads preformance. That is, the power head operated smoother as the day went on. It idoled at 800 rpm for 45 min with out cutting out, I trolled for hours @ 850 rpm's without cutting out.
When I throttle up slowly I can get to 1600 rpm. I still have to hit the enricher (choke) to get it to rpm up over 1800 rpm. Once it gets to 1800 rpm it works fine. I was able to operate the power head @ 5500 rpm sustained for 5 min with No issues.
I really donk know what more to do. Waiting for sugestions.
(a match and a gallon of gas, is not a sugestion. All though It has been considered)

shadowman
04-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Didn't you change idle air jets? If so, are you sure you went in the right direction. Im fairly certain going larger on the idle air jets will lean the engine. Can be mis-leading. Keep in mind if the enrichment system gets it over the hump your lean.

Good luck,:)

Dave_hunting
04-21-2008, 10:51 AM
Thank you, but yes, Not only did I go in the wrong direction, The problem is working its self out with every fix.

And Yes thank you David Borg again, for the correct direction. I first was in denial but after considerable thought, realized what you were saying was absolutly spot on.

Yes, I did go against the chart. If you read the post, When I hit the enricher the motor jumps to life. It is obvious the power head needs fuel to get POWER.

If you follow the Seloc chart on pages a 14 and 15 (jet elevation chart). It is correct, You need to decrease the amount of fuel as you increase in elevation. Air is thiner at altitude so you need to increase air / decrease fuel. In a perfect world.
If I have to tap the enricher it is telling me I need more fuel. So, I went the wrong way on purpose. Playing to the problem at hand. Which is not covered in the manual. So by using what we know. It wants more fuel. I had to engineer a solution.
I checked the fuel flow with a volume test and a remote tank test. No difrence.

I reduced the size of the idol jets to .052" (less air more fuel)

I trolled arround the lake at 700rpm at 1.9 mph for 3 hours yesterday. The motor chuged on at 700 PRM with no stalling issues.

Getting on plane is a difrent issue. I still have to hit the enricher but only shorly now. I think I'll fatten up the top this time and see where it takes me. I know this fatter is better than leaner.

I did find another problem. This is the first time it was witness, as I was hauling across the lake at 44MPH(GPS). @ 5500 PRM. The motor died. Thinikin the worse I panicked. Untill I saw the problem.
The bulb was flat! I tried opening the refueling cap to let in air in case it was vacume locked. That didnt work. So, That did not free the fuel to enter the bulb. I removed the hose on the tank side of the bulb, and tried to pull fuel thru. nothing! I blew in it and cleared it. This is somthing we had checked twice before and it did not happen when we tested it. I now know it is there and it is a real serious issue.
So before I hit the lake again, the tank comes out and I will clean it out good. Make sure nothing is in there before I go to the lake again. The fuel hose is new, so I'll hit it with the air compressor. The fuel filter is clean. What ever it is was blocking the fuel was in the bottom of the thank where the fuel pickup is.

Dave

P.S.
I Cought 5 Large mouth this week end, 2 of them 5+, 2 others at 3+ and a 1 puonder! And yes I put em back in the water!! I eat Walleye!

Dave_hunting
04-21-2008, 11:52 AM
Im going to fix the tank issue before I make any more motor/carb changes. It's fruitless to change the carbs now the tank problem has been identified.

David Borg
04-21-2008, 04:17 PM
you re welcome ,

I would go down another 0.002 in the idle and up 0.002 in the high speed jets, this should help alot if not solve your problem.

good luck

j_martin
04-21-2008, 04:31 PM
Thank you, but yes, Not only did I go in the wrong direction, The problem is working its self out with every fix.

And Yes thank you David Borg again, for the correct direction. I first was in denial but after considerable thought, realized what you were saying was absolutly spot on.

Yes, I did go against the chart. If you read the post, When I hit the enricher the motor jumps to life. It is obvious the power head needs fuel to get POWER.

If you follow the Seloc chart on pages a 14 and 15 (jet elevation chart). It is correct, You need to decrease the amount of fuel as you increase in elevation. Air is thiner at altitude so you need to increase air / decrease fuel. In a perfect world.
If I have to tap the enricher it is telling me I need more fuel. So, I went the wrong way on purpose. Playing to the problem at hand. Which is not covered in the manual. So by using what we know. It wants more fuel. I had to engineer a solution.
I checked the fuel flow with a volume test and a remote tank test. No difrence.

I reduced the size of the idol jets to .052" (less air more fuel)

I trolled arround the lake at 700rpm at 1.9 mph for 3 hours yesterday. The motor chuged on at 700 PRM with no stalling issues.

Getting on plane is a difrent issue. I still have to hit the enricher but only shorly now. I think I'll fatten up the top this time and see where it takes me. I know this fatter is better than leaner.

I did find another problem. This is the first time it was witness, as I was hauling across the lake at 44MPH(GPS). @ 5500 PRM. The motor died. Thinikin the worse I panicked. Untill I saw the problem.
The bulb was flat! I tried opening the refueling cap to let in air in case it was vacume locked. That didnt work. So, That did not free the fuel to enter the bulb. I removed the hose on the tank side of the bulb, and tried to pull fuel thru. nothing! I blew in it and cleared it. This is somthing we had checked twice before and it did not happen when we tested it. I now know it is there and it is a real serious issue.
So before I hit the lake again, the tank comes out and I will clean it out good. Make sure nothing is in there before I go to the lake again. The fuel hose is new, so I'll hit it with the air compressor. The fuel filter is clean. What ever it is was blocking the fuel was in the bottom of the thank where the fuel pickup is.

Dave

P.S.
I Cought 5 Large mouth this week end, 2 of them 5+, 2 others at 3+ and a 1 puonder! And yes I put em back in the water!! I eat Walleye!


I had my oil system alarm one time, no aparrent reason.

When I dumped the oil out of the boat tank, there was a foil oil bottle seal in it. Must have gotten over the intake and blocked it off.

You'll find something like that in your gas tank.
John

Dave_hunting
04-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Hey guys,<O:p</O:p
O.K. Iím going to install +.002 on the high speed side. I had misfortune, with the #3 hole idol jet. When I installed it, it never seated. And I was unable to back it out. So for the time being .052ís will be my idol jets. I all ready know what Iím going to find. That is another days work.
As far as the tank, I think your absolutely right J. Martin. I took off the 90 at the top of the tank. Some one already beat me to removing the anti siphon spring and ball. There is definitely debris in the tank. Found a small blade of grass in the pickup screen in the tank pick up tube. Thatís where Iím headed now. Problem is the tank is plastic; if I try to remove it it might break. I canít get my head in there far enough to see in. I got to find a small fuel pump that will suck out the debris. Iíll be thinking this one through the week. As usual any sugestions to this delema are welcome.
I do know this has to get fixed before I can even start farting with the carbs.

j_martin
04-24-2008, 09:35 AM
A cheap gas siphon with squeeze bulb from Swil-Mart. Takes a little while, but it gets it done.

When I did mine, I parked the boat on a side hill so the pickup tube end of the tank was lowest.

BTW, if you think the tank is too brittle to be handled, get it out of your boat. The last thing you need when you're dealing with a glass crunching accident is 20 gallons of fuel sloshing around looking for a spark.

hope it helps
John

Dave_hunting
04-24-2008, 11:37 PM
So, I drained the tank left a half gallon in in. I removed the frozen sending unit, looked in side to see the city dump. 1" long chunks of what looked like old broken up valve cover gasket, many. When i was finished scraping the bottom of the tank with an old piece of oak trim I had in the garage. I ended up with no less than 2 cups of sediment. I rinced out the tank a few times. Looks better now. The fuel fill valve hose crumbled when I removed it from the tank. and I need to purchase another fuel sending unit. I'll sweep the fuel hose and bulb before I re assemble it. Lord this is fun!

j_martin
04-25-2008, 10:38 AM
So, I drained the tank left a half gallon in in. I removed the frozen sending unit, looked in side to see the city dump. 1" long chunks of what looked like old broken up valve cover gasket, many. When i was finished scraping the bottom of the tank with an old piece of oak trim I had in the garage. I ended up with no less than 2 cups of sediment. I rinced out the tank a few times. Looks better now. The fuel fill valve hose crumbled when I removed it from the tank. and I need to purchase another fuel sending unit. I'll sweep the fuel hose and bulb before I re assemble it. Lord this is fun!

Maybe when you quit feeding that chit to your motor, it'll return the favor.:D

Dave_hunting
05-02-2008, 10:16 PM
Maybe when you quit feeding that chit to your motor, it'll return the favor.:D

J. I could not agree with you more!

(My Wishful thinking)

What if, when I was accelerating, the pick up screen was getting a good dose of that debris. Now it will not be blocked at all. I could only hope. But to pop my own bubble. If that were the case it would have bogged down after releasing the enrichner. So that theroy is shot to crap.
But as we have seen. Every little fix that I do just makes it a bit stronger.

j_martin
05-02-2008, 11:21 PM
J. I could not agree with you more!

(My Wishful thinking)

What if, when I was accelerating, the pick up screen was getting a good dose of that debris. Now it will not be blocked at all. I could only hope. But to pop my own bubble. If that were the case it would have bogged down after releasing the enrichner. So that theroy is shot to crap.
But as we have seen. Every little fix that I do just makes it a bit stronger.

I bought somebody elses trouble also. Lots of things to fix, but is it ever fun to run when you know it's right and you put it that way.

keep on keeping on, there's light at the end of the tunnel. (or is it bus headlamps?)

Oh well, hope it helps
John

Dave_hunting
05-04-2008, 09:15 PM
You bet! every word.

I just got every instruiment working, except the trim / tilt. The Trim / tilt indicator was wired all wrong. So i corrected that and it still didnt work. I traced out the trim/tilt sensor to the mid. On the trim/tilt sensor theres a plastic - (turning tab) it was sheraed off. No wonder it was not working. I'll search for a trim/tilt sensor.
And your right, I love working on this tub. I just get earked when the problem is not defined. Makes it a challange. Im learnimg a lot. Thanks to you guys and your input.

Dave_hunting
05-07-2008, 12:04 AM
Tilt sender tab was sheared off clean, I pulled out the Dremel and cut a 1/8" wide slot 3/16" deep in the sending unit pivot button. I cut an alunimum tab and JB welded it in place. Re installed and now all the instruments are functional.
Next adventure is to change all the incondescent indicator lights to LED. This will help extend the battery life at night. Ebay is a wonderful place to pick up those type of items. :)
I cant get to the lake untill the 17th, the gas hear is 3.55 thats not the problem its the 4.19 per gal for the Diesel, @ 12MPG for the tow truck and the closest lake is 110 miles away. yeah its becoming a factor in the amount of trips I can squeeze to det to the lake.

Dave_hunting
05-30-2008, 10:11 AM
OK
New trim tilt motor installed, All lights converted to LED, All toggles replaced with new ones. Replaced bilge and Aerator pumps, Added a vented prop. Now just waiting for the carb set to come in. Going to the lake tomarrow. Not as if the other stuff will make it work better. I helps me to know there fixed and sound. We'll see.

Dave_hunting
06-02-2008, 12:33 PM
New carbs installed, replaced the idol jets with .052 increased amount of idol fuel going to the motor.

If the motor is level, or down it still bogs down. If I tilt the motor up I can get the boat on plane. Now it dont jump out of the water. Its a slow build up over a miniute. As soon as the motor gets to 2200 RPM I start tilting it down slowly, If I do it to fast the motor dies and I have to start it all over. Once the boat is on plane I can raise the motor back up and trim put the RPM's. It seems to do best at 5000RPM. Im ok with that. I had my map 60 CSX on board and the GPS SPEED said 68.7MPH, water pressure speedomiter sait 42MPH and the Fish finder said 47MPH.
I trolled around the lake for two days. It did not stall once. Consistanly keeping at 700 to 750RPM.
Id say it is fixed but needs some tweaking, to get it 100%.
Thanks all of you who have given input. Every one I thank you all. Everyone gave awesome input and sugestions to remedy this problem.
Special thanks to Shooter1, for helping out, he went above and beyond! And gained a friend in doing so. J.Martin Thanks you for your words too, In the end all were helpful.

We Caught
2 18" walleye
12 17" 2+ pound crappie
40 8"-10" crappie
20 or so small mouth
oh and i cant forget the
8 pound carp (he broke my favorite rod, freak'in crap fish)

CharlieB53
06-02-2008, 03:57 PM
Dave,

Trimming the motor up unloads the prop an amount, in your case tap the enrichener again as you hit the throttle to see how lean your idle mixture is, I bet that you are still lean enough it does not have the snap that you should have but not so lean as to cause any damage trolling all day.

With your vented prop once you get the idle mix right your boat should JUMP up tach climbing, nose over and let that prop get a bigger bite of water the tach should drop a thou and start accelerating the boat briskly right on up to redline.

Wayne Cammidge
06-03-2008, 02:20 AM
Hi All.
I have really enjoyed following the saga.
I have followed some of the trials and tribulations of the Mercs.
We live in South Africa and have a lot of people who boat at altitude about 70% of our boating public boat at about 6000ft and boy have we had problems.
The first thing that I would do is to try a set of carbs off one of the latest generation 2.0l 150 engines. Merc in their wisdom changed carbs around the era of your engine and just had huge problems. The Idle circuit and intermediate pick up circuits were seperated on your version carb. Prior to your carbs, the fuel was drawn up to the top of the carb, passed over the intermediate inlets and entered the idle inlets from the top. As the carb butterfly was opened the intermediate openings received a drop in pressure and fuel would be drawn through imediately. Your version carb the intermediate inlets are still on the top but the idle inlets are near the bottom. Once the butterfly moves and the intemediate inlets are exposed it starts to draw but it takes a while for that circuit to prime itself, thereby having an extremely lean mix. Seems to be compounded at altitude. Later model carbs had enricher pumps to try sort out the problems and lots of different version carbs over the years. Try the latest, got at set lying on my workbench right at the moment but that is going to help no body, they even have an adjustable mixture setting. Work Lovely.
The next problem you are probably having is bogging, the idle relief exhaust ports are getting submerged on take off, drastically increase exhaust back pressure and restricting the engine. The easiest test for this is to keep the boat well tied down on the trailer, reverse into the water so that the gearbox is submerged so that the water pump is just covered, make sure that the prop will not touch the ground, start it, let it warm up nicely in gear, and then try advancing the throttle, keep trying with quicker and quicker openings. Be carefull not to run the engine at high throttle openings for long as the engine will not achieve full revs like this and there is a possibility that would could burn a hole in the piston. If it runs okay like this then you need to look at the set up of your engine on the boat. On pull off does the engine bury the exhaust relief ports under water. Need to raise engine, reduce set back on transom, move weight forward in the boat, fit engine to larger boat.
In some instances, due to us over powering boats to overcome the horsepower loss due to the altitude, we were having these same problems, we would do a modification that would involve adding a new set of exhaust idle relief ports higher up, it is a drastic last measure solution, that sometimes helped hugely, we had a 220 Mariner EFI that we had to do this and then run a small hub 22" Laser prop. Was absolute rocket ship after the mods, but was a dog before. Battled to pull a single slalom skier up before the mods and would rip out 3 slalom skiers after. I would try maybe a Trophy 4 blade small hub 19" prop.
Another solution that was done quite often was to put the high altitude gear set in the gear box, that will help get the revs closer to the 5500 that you need, I am a firm believer that the mercs need to rev. I see you have removed the idle stabiliser, some of then had high speed advances built in and some had high speed retarders built in depending on the model.
Some were good, others not. If you had one that advanced the timing I would definately have kept it. Can't remember the exact figures but once engine got over about 5200rpm the timing would advance about 6^, sounds about right with the intial timing setting of 18^. With no spark advance 24^ sounds about right, just be careful if you are lugging the engine ie. towing a mates boat home at full throttle but only doing about 2000 rpm, you will burn holes in your pistons. Sorry got off track, Mercs in most instances want to be able to rev, I like to see at 5800rpm and I am not worried about them if they rev to 6300rpm. Less than that and the bogging issues gets more pronounced.
Hope I have been of some assistance, it would have been much easier for you if you had someone near you with a 150 that you could have swapped and changed parts untill you hit on the main cause.
Cheers
Wayne Cammidge

Dave_hunting
06-04-2008, 12:47 AM
Dave,

Trimming the motor up unloads the prop an amount, in your case tap the enrichener again as you hit the throttle to see how lean your idle mixture is, I bet that you are still lean enough it does not have the snap that you should have but not so lean as to cause any damage trolling all day.

With your vented prop once you get the idle mix right your boat should JUMP up tach climbing, nose over and let that prop get a bigger bite of water the tach should drop a thou and start accelerating the boat briskly right on up to redline.

Yes, CB I tried it several times. Its actually on the fat side, I was only able to get it up once with the enricher this time. I went into town for an hour and my son played arround with it. He said was not able to get the RPM's up now with the enricher. Actually when you press the enricher when accelerating it bogs down. What we did was tilt it up out of the water, the bow raises sky hi. as soon as I hit 2200, I start inching the tilt down so it comes out of the water like a Sloth. I can assure you. with the smaller idol jet .052 they give less air and more fuel. The bottom (mains) on the other hand is opposite the Idol, the bigger the jet you get more fuel. Now with that. If my pick up tubes that went into the carb bowl were jacked up. (after compairing the new ons with the old ones) I can tell you for sure that my pickup tubes were abused during break down by some one in thier life.
Now I would agree with you if i hit the enricher and I get RPM. But that was not happening. I was loosing RPM every time we touched the enricher while trying to get up on plane.
As for the vented prop, yes it did jump, but my holes are too big! My learning has been expanded. I made the holes to big. They are 5/8". The prop cavitated every try. After 4 attempts. I put the new prop back on. But I must say it got up to 2200 Rpm in a hurry and then up way too fast as it cavatated hard. It really reacts fast when the motor hits 2200+ RPMs.
As for the plugs, I put in a fresh set of plugs before this outting. And when I checked them they were paper bag brown. There is a slight carbon build up on a couple of them but nothing to write home about.

On a glass lake, I can get it to 5500 RPM WOT. On a choppy lake I dare not take it past 5000 because it starts to porpoise bad, so I have to trim down and can get a smooth ride at 5000 PRM.

Dave_hunting
06-04-2008, 01:42 AM
Wayne Cammidge,

Yes, I agree elevation is a killer, And all input is welcome. Im going to look in to the later model carbs your talking about. it sounds like an interesting option.

Im going to re time, and link & sync again. I have the timing set to 4 degrees BTDC on the bottom. (Thats what it wanted with the old carbs, so thats what it got.) and 23 BTDC WOT. The book calls for 11 degres ATDC at idol, and and WOT 18 BTDC. Mind you thats if your running a idol stabilizer. But now with the new carbs and Since Im running with out it. Im going to set the idol timing to arround 4 ATDC and keep the top WOT at 23 BTDC. I will adjust the Idol timing to where the power head idols right.
I may experiment and try to put the idol stabalizer back on later. But for now its on a shelve in the garage. Since I have removed it, I have seen a smoother idol.
As far as the exhaust ports being in the water, when level. Yes i think your on to somthing. When tilt is level, they are submerged. When I tilt the motor up of course they are out of the water. Im interested in hearing more on your modification that would involve adding a new set of exhaust idle relief ports higher up. This sounds like somthing i would like to experiment with.
And my closest someone who helps me lives about 360 miles from me, He has been sending me parts to experiment with. It has been a real God Send, for the help, advice and support.
Im going to keep the timing at 23 on the top just to be on the safe side.
And we are pretty sure it had an idol stabilizer, from what everyone who seen it knows has told me.

CharlieB53
06-04-2008, 12:39 PM
Rechecked parts catalog here
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_Pictures3.asp?dnbr=818855&ivar=images/COMMON/18502.png&inbr=575&bnbr=90&bdesc=Carburetor+Assembly

Those idle jets are idle 'air bleeds'

You may be going in the wrong direction to lean your idle mixture.

If you are too fat an idle, which you indicate that the enrichener aggravates the bog, then go back to the 54's and re-test again to verify rich/lean idle circuit bogging on acceleration. If the enrichener still aggravates the bog then go to the 56's

Sounds like the mains are perfectly sized.

One more test, remove the bowl vents and note any difference good, bad.

Near sea level I've been told reworked motors running better without the vent restriction, at your elevation you may need the smaller bowl vent.

Dave_hunting
06-07-2008, 02:41 PM
Rechecked parts catalog here
http://www.mercruiserparts.com/Show_Pictures3.asp?dnbr=818855&ivar=images/COMMON/18502.png&inbr=575&bnbr=90&bdesc=Carburetor+Assembly

Those idle jets are idle 'air bleeds'

You may be going in the wrong direction to lean your idle mixture.

If you are too fat an idle, which you indicate that the enrichener aggravates the bog, then go back to the 54's and re-test again to verify rich/lean idle circuit bogging on acceleration. If the enrichener still aggravates the bog then go to the 56's

Sounds like the mains are perfectly sized.

One more test, remove the bowl vents and note any difference good, bad.

Near sea level I've been told reworked motors running better without the vent restriction, at your elevation you may need the smaller bowl vent.

Charlie B you instigator!

I find my self thinking everything every time you write. Thanks! Don't quit you inspire real thought to happen.

AND Yes! You may be right.
The manual says 27's do not have vent jets. So thats not a non issue.
Since I changed out the carbs, (thanks Deacon) The motor is acting differently. In a better way. Now when I hit the enricher when accelerating It no longer adds power, it now it looses power. I should have left the .054's in it and gave it a try before farting with the air bleed jets, My bad.
I can tell you with the addition of the carbs, Im on the right track. They were in outstanding condition compaired to the ones I had on it.
Now I can get on plane. Without the enricher.

I so excited when I got them, I didnt re adjust the motor before I went to the lake.

Things I need to do before my next lake trip.

1. Install the .054 Air bleed jets.
2. link and sync
3. I need to re do my timing. With the Idol Stabalizer book calls for 11 ATDC at Idol, and 18 BTDC WOT.
You know, I removed the Idol stabilizer. And was running 4 BTDC idol and 23 BTDC. I'm staying at 23 I dont want to press the envelope to 25 degrees. I may have been taking too much of the advance out of the bottom.
(with the old carbs I had to advance Idol timing to 4 BTDC just to get the Idol right. I need to get it back down to arround 4 - 6 ATDC).
I think we are on the right track.

Dave_hunting
07-21-2008, 09:40 PM
Charlie B you instigator!

I find my self thinking everything every time you write. Thanks! Don't quit you inspire real thought to happen.

AND Yes! You may be right.
The manual says 27's do not have vent jets. So thats not a non issue.
Since I changed out the carbs, (thanks Deacon) The motor is acting differently. In a better way. Now when I hit the enricher when accelerating It no longer adds power, it now it looses power. I should have left the .054's in it and gave it a try before farting with the air bleed jets, My bad.
I can tell you with the addition of the carbs, Im on the right track. They were in outstanding condition compaired to the ones I had on it.
Now I can get on plane. Without the enricher.

I so excited when I got them, I didnt re adjust the motor before I went to the lake.

Things I need to do before my next lake trip.

1. Install the .054 Air bleed jets.
2. link and sync
3. I need to re do my timing. With the Idol Stabalizer book calls for 11 ATDC at Idol, and 18 BTDC WOT.
You know, I removed the Idol stabilizer. And was running 4 BTDC idol and 23 BTDC. I'm staying at 23 I dont want to press the envelope to 25 degrees. I may have been taking too much of the advance out of the bottom.
(with the old carbs I had to advance Idol timing to 4 BTDC just to get the Idol right. I need to get it back down to arround 4 - 6 ATDC).
I think we are on the right track.


OK.
I'd like to thanks all of you who have responded.
This was no small project.
It works! Well, it dose now!

I vented my prop with 3/8" holes, I removed a troling plate and added a sting ray outboard stabilizer. (Thanks shooter1 again for all you wizdom!)
The timing was 6 BTDC, and ATDC was 23.

The boat now, gets up on plane and roars at 5300 RPM.

Im ok with that, i think I will put a 17p prop on it and see how it trolls.

re cap
What was replaced
New (working used new to the motor)
carbs, ignition system, 4 pistons, bearings, 6 ring sets, oil resevour system, 6 new after market carb folats, 3 carb rebuild kits, bleed lines, fuel pump rebuild kit, new fuel lines all, water pump kit, power head gasket rebuild kit, propeller, sting ray hydrafoil. And a lot of other smaller misc parts.

And with your input and the help of A Seloc Manual, did it with all your help and inputs.

CharlieB
I did return the carbs to stock, book specs and they work perfect.

Well till my next project. Ithink I'll get this one ready to sell and look for another to fart around with, little bigger little stronger.
I got one in my sights, I just have to work out the details.

Thanks evey one your the best!

Dave_hunting
07-21-2008, 09:51 PM
P.S.

Went to Ute Lake for 8 days, boat trolls great at 700 to 650 RPM and at about 3 MPH with very little fuss. I made a water sock to slow the boat down to 1.8 MPH. Found the fish in 15 to 20 foot of water. And bounced them with our home made spinner Night crawler rigs.
Searched for fish the first day, (fished 6 days,) limited out on Walleye 5 days, Worked on the boat 2 days and brought home a lot of Walleye filets. The best tasting fish on the planet!
It worked great! (Thanks to the help of Rande ;), with out your awesome assistance I would have been trailered, you know what had to do!)
Dave