PDA

View Full Version : Most powerful race motor ever



Guy Hanson
04-26-2006, 07:30 PM
What is the most powereful outboard race motor in its production form ever made? I am not talking about modified after market hotted up wiz bangs, but as purchased from the manufacturer for the purpose of racing!

Ted Stryker
04-26-2006, 07:44 PM
That question will probably stir some debate... The F1 V8 OMC was probably the highest from the factory...

Ted Stryker
04-26-2006, 08:59 PM
Lots of speculation in that area, I don't an accurate enough opinion to state an answer... I heard some reports of over well over 400, but I think that is optimistic... I think that it did make well over 300, but that is a vague answer and that's as far as I'm going on that... Someone knows for sure, but all I've ever read is speculative...

Raceman
04-26-2006, 09:02 PM
Guy, that topic has been about as volatile around here in the past as Splashing threads, and the debate has turned angry at times.

Some people will argue that the OMC F1 V8 would win the contest hands down, but I've never been convinced that the old horsepower claims weren't wildly exagerated. If I ever get mine finished I firmly intend to dyno it and try and get some realistic idea of what the real horsepower was on em. In any case, I think today's crop of F1 Mercs would have to be at least in the contest. Maybe time will prove that the F1 V8 REALLY IS the horsepower king, but being a skeptic, I've gotta have proof. The old OMC Rotary may very well be high up the list also. They apparently had awsome power when they ran.

Raceman
04-26-2006, 09:59 PM
What do you mean when you get yours finished? I thought you bought a complete V8 off of that race boat that had the front end rotted off?

The powerhead was disassembled and had a few parts that had gotten lost after years of moving around. I found most, but there're a few still missing, most notably the harmonic balancer.

150aintenuff
04-26-2006, 10:55 PM
holding the outboard speed record ought to mean something for the F1 omc.. but that was with mods.. so maybe not

Ray Neudecker
04-27-2006, 07:03 AM
Just quessing, but likely the OMC rotary may have been the King. Certainly the strongest I ever ran, the ride just didn't always last very long. The really strongest motors in that day were never really released to the non factory drivers until they had been superceded by something stronger. The 300 drag or F-1 is the strongest that was actually sold to the public.
The OMC V-8 may have been stronger, but was not ever a consumer motor.

Fast Fred
04-27-2006, 07:21 AM
well this one is in that pile
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3731/webf11yl.th.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=webf11yl.jpg):cool:
should be good for 50hp a hole

Charger70
04-27-2006, 08:18 AM
I have two of those running. Any one got a dyno good for 400+????
106348

6Killer
04-27-2006, 08:30 AM
OMC Stuff.

Fast Fred
04-27-2006, 08:55 AM
Who owns that motor anyways? I remember someone on here bought it at a pawn shop for next to nothing a few years back
not me:( :cool:

Hey 6killer what do you think She is putin out with the fuel injection, 450+ :cool:

Bruce Washburn
04-27-2006, 04:15 PM
On some courses I am sure a good F1 Merc would be able to beat a V8. But for out and out Horse power and power a fuel injected F1 V8 would be tough to beat. There were 3.0 L 3.5L and I have heard a couple 4.0 L versions. I am sure the 4.0L factory versions were well over 400. The F1 v8 was not the same as the prodction motor.

The mercs may run with them on certain courses but you also need to remember that the OMC's were usually on bigger boats and weighed about 100 lbs more.

1BadAction
04-27-2006, 04:29 PM
was the F1 V8 ever available as a production motor?

Raceman
04-27-2006, 05:47 PM
Isn't that a car term? lol If you mean flywheel there is one for sale in the misc parts section a few pages back under the title
"gold flywheel...." or something like that, same as the one you need for the V8

I'm not very OMC knowledgeable, but several people who've helped me with some parts for my F1 V8 refer to it as "harmonic balancer". It goes ON THE BOTTOM OF THE CRANKSHAFT, not the bottom like the flywheel does. The crank is tapered down there somehow for it to fit on, but I haven't looked in a year or so and don't remember exactly what it looks like.

Raceman
04-27-2006, 05:51 PM
was the F1 V8 ever available as a production motor?

I'm not sure what you mean by "production motor" exactly. There were some privateers that had em, but it's safe to say they had connections/race credentials, and the engines were made in relatively small numbers. I don't know if that was because the price severely limited demand, or if OMC intentionally limited it. I also don't know how many different displacements they offered the F1 versions in. The F1 blocks are noticeably different from the production V8's even at a glance because the exhaust chest on the F1 is removable, similar to a Merc, where it's cast solid as part of the block on the production motor. Mine is one of the later fuel injected ones with the shortest mid they made and it's 3.4 liter.

Fast Fred
04-27-2006, 05:58 PM
I think the CCC had the same style balancer.


Mine is one of the later fuel injected ones with the shortest mid they made and it's 3.4 liter. :eek:
:eek: startin to think the list is shorter on what you don't have:eek:
dose the bracket lift( up and down) on that.

Charger70
04-27-2006, 06:09 PM
I am not a OMC expert at all but I have tried to do some research on the motors I bought. They are Evinrude Offshore 1, 3.5 Liter V8 sand cast motors much like if not the same block as the F1 motors. They had single plug heads and 8 dual carbs. These were offered from Second Effort Permance as a production order for a very short period of time and then went to the 3.6/4.0 liter. Second Effort was an OMC approved vendor and was heavily involved with OMC performance. I think that is about as close to a production F1 motor as I have found. Pete Nydal and Alex Hledin are a wealth of knowledge on these, Pete sent me the Second Effort Performance Advertisement on these motors. The single plug heads were rated at 425 HP @ 8300. I have the flyer which is pretty interesting and will try to scan it if any one is interested.

Raceman
04-27-2006, 06:12 PM
does the bracket lift( up and down) on that.

Yes, it has hydraulic up/down in the swivel bracket. Another interesting tidbit on that engine (which I've posted before........ sorry) is that even though the mid is ultra short it only lowers the powerhead, NOT the relationship between the gearcase and the transom mount, so they ran at the same transom height as the earlier F1 V8 that was about the same as the CCC & RS. This makes them run a transom height approx 3 to 4 inches higher than the Champ type Merc, even though the mid is shorter.

Fast Fred
04-27-2006, 06:13 PM
I have the flyer which is pretty interesting and will try to scan it if any one is interested. for sure would like to see it:cool:

Fast Fred
04-27-2006, 06:18 PM
even though the mid is ultra short it only lowers the powerhead, pullin the CG down, good stuff, i'm sure it's far big than the CC bracket
but looks just like it, the FR-CC goes up and down too, not alot but.:cool:

Guy Hanson
04-27-2006, 09:11 PM
Yes please post the flyer, never seen that before. The word "production" was used in my question as i wanted to know what factory finished motor made the most power, not a modified motor as that argument will never end. Come on Mercury boys do you have anything?:)

Fast Fred
04-28-2006, 10:05 AM
thinkin the 2.5 280hp Ross OS is a player, in that cat' :cool:

BarryStrawn
04-28-2006, 11:06 AM
The correct term is "Torsional Damper" and I believe every production V8 also has one. Harmonic balancer is the shade tree term.

SportJ-US-1
04-28-2006, 11:27 AM
If you look at Fast Fred's pic you can see the damper on the bottom of the motor.

1BadAction
04-28-2006, 12:08 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "production motor" exactly.
in other words... In 1985, could someone "off the street" have walked in to the OMC dealer of the time and bought an F1 V8 like they ran on the tunnels? (like someone could call up Diamond Marine now and order a 300 drag, etc) or was it just the guys that were in "the clique" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clique) that could get their hands on one?

Fast Fred
04-28-2006, 12:13 PM
S If you look at Fast Fred's pic you can see the damper on the bottom of the motor.
I was thinkin that was a cardboard packin sleeve thing,:cool:

Bruce Washburn
04-28-2006, 01:42 PM
They could be bought from second effort for racing on the F1 circuit. There were alot of guys that ran that were not factory drivers. If you had a tunnel and cash I am sure Gary would have sold you an engine. I am not sure if any were ever sold to non-racers. I know that they were expensive and that the parts like Cranks and rods were very very expensive. They were not production based engines

Charger70
04-28-2006, 02:38 PM
Here is the ad. Like all ads they are trying to sell you something thatyou are not sure you need. BUT if you believe any of it the horsepower rating is worth conversation. You could walk up to the counter and buy these but it appears almost no one did.

Juggernaut
04-28-2006, 03:05 PM
60 day warantee? sounds like the engines were prone to fail in short periods of time.

Bruce Washburn
04-28-2006, 03:19 PM
What is the warantee on a new Drag motor. I know th race motors have Mercury's special turn key warantee. (once you start it you own it)

Mark75H
04-28-2006, 05:41 PM
Let's try this as a .jpg

Its the European Offshore version, not a tunnel hull F-1 V-8

It took me a while to hammer it into a .jpg

Guy Hanson
04-28-2006, 06:06 PM
So do we have it that the OMC F1 V8 is the most powerful factory produced racing outboard of all time!!!! ? if so was the carby 3.5ltr or the 3.5 ltr injected or the 3ltr injected motor the top of the bunch, hey dont forget these;) things were putting out nearly 400 hp 25 years ago!

Mark75H
04-28-2006, 06:11 PM
Guy, I still have that BP prop for you. Figure out the best way to send USD $$$ to me and I'll send it downunder :)

Charger70
04-28-2006, 07:38 PM
With the written proof you have seen I would have to say the F1 V8 (carb or FI) has the most HP. They had more than the Offshore 1 and it listed at 390. So if you cannot find some one with a documented HP rating higher than that you found your winner. Again I have two Offshore 1 engines running on my boat and would be happy to hit the dyno to verify HP.

Guy Hanson
04-28-2006, 09:05 PM
Hey charger , that would be a buzz, but you would need a pretty tough dyno, but yep i reckon it would be worthwhile.
Sam , i have been using a SSM 3 on the BP , I pinched it from a Twister, so the prop issue went away, but I would like to buy that propeller, maybe I will post you some US dollars! The BP is only about 10MPH slower than the twister on the same hull, Amazing!!!!:)

Raceman
04-28-2006, 09:44 PM
What is a "SSM 3" ?

Guy Hanson
04-30-2006, 07:40 PM
Hi Raceman, I call the super speedmaster, that suits the twister 2 X an SSM3, this would be about a 1974-75 version of this gearbox, is this incorrect?:rolleyes: I asume from your question i may be wrong!

Raceman
04-30-2006, 08:06 PM
I believe the #3 was used only for sterndrives. The smaller units are usually referred to simply as SSM's.

150aintenuff
04-30-2006, 09:56 PM
3's are indeed a sterndrive leg not an outboard.

Fast Fred
06-20-2006, 05:53 PM
that "old carb moda" would windup just fine for me, :eek:
think i need one:cool:

Raceman
06-20-2006, 10:42 PM
no factory V8 ever sold from omc or second effort.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here. The F1 EFI V8 that I currently own was sold to a privateer by OMC.

Raceman
06-20-2006, 10:54 PM
I've heard the 500 horse estimates floated around before for the injected OMC race motors, but I've never believed it................ the results on the race course just didn't support that kind of power differential between them and the smaller Mercs. The 2.4 liter Mercs of that era in F1 trim only put out 270 or so, and it would be expected that they'd have been getting lapped almost immediately by anything with almost double the horsepower.

Raceman
06-20-2006, 11:00 PM
where did you get it from? is it the race motor? i know that the motors my dad,benny robertson, and cees were running came of the truck every week. also know those motors had a melt down if you know what i mean. i'd like to see pics of yours.

It's the injected race motor. The block has the removeable exhaust chest cover, unlike the production unit which has it cast as part of the block.

Here's an old thread with more pictures, including the rotten boat it was on:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45185&highlight=Gee+V8

Fast Fred
06-21-2006, 04:53 AM
was talkin to Ben some days back he said the fueler was 525hp:eek:
It's not easy to through down a lap on an other hull, even with big power over them, best i ever done in a tunnel was about the 3rd lap on a one mile to get by them:eek:

Mark75H
06-21-2006, 05:56 AM
was talkin to Ben some days back he said the fueler was 525hp:eek:
It's not easy to through down a lap on an other hull, even with big power over them, best i ever done in a tunnel was about the 3rd lap on a one mile to get by them:eek:

The drivers aren't the experts on how much power a motor makes, the engineers who built them are. Mssrs Strang and Leek recall a lower number than Ben does

1BadAction
06-21-2006, 07:25 AM
lets put it on the action! with nitrous! :D I'll only run it 3/4 throttle I promise.

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41987&d=1066770603

Raceman
06-21-2006, 08:54 AM
was talkin to Ben some days back he said the fueler was 525hp:eek:
It's not easy to through down a lap on an other hull, even with big power over them, best i ever done in a tunnel was about the 3rd lap on a one mile to get by them:eek:

Every year that goes by sees these engines putting out more and more horsepower back then. If you can imagine the J Sport boats of the 70's lining up next to the Mod U's of that era, that'd be about what we're talking about comparing an F1 2.4 Merc with 260 to 280 horsepower to a 525 horse OMC. Again, the difference at the races just don't support the wildly speculative horsepower estimates we see of them today.

In searching for parts for mine (the entire ignition system mysteriously turned up missing on it's last trip to Second Effort for freshening about the time they were shutting it down:( ) I talked to a lot of the old guys familiar with the engine, as well as a couple foolin' with em now, and the 400 horse number kept popping up. Even at that I found it possible a little optimistic based on the fact that the much smaller Mercs were able to make a decent showing with em.

There's nothing short of a dyno test that's gonna make be buy the fact that the engines had double the horsepower of the Mercs, yet the Mercs were able to remain at least respectable with em.

Raceman
06-21-2006, 08:56 AM
who's got the T4 pics? havn't seen one in years. cool V8 raceman. you have connections. can you get parts for it?

I've got 1 complete T4 as well as 3 extra COMPLETE drop ons, 2 gear cases and 3 cowls. Mid sections are the only thing missing to put 2 more together.

There are some pics scattered around this site.

Raceman
06-21-2006, 09:03 AM
Here's a thread with a little bit of T4 stuff:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89429&highlight=T4

If you do a search for T4 and T-4 it'll probably turn up more pictures. I had mine on a 20' Allison at one time and there're pictures of it on here somewhere, but I don't see em at a glance.

Raceman
06-21-2006, 11:07 AM
do you remember mercs wizard? every time i saw it run it would lap the field and then the transom riped out of it. i think it was 2 V6 merc race powerheads on 1 downhousing or something crazy like that. around about 1984 because dad was at second effort then.

Yeah, I remeber. I never saw it in person, but saw pics back then, and they've been posted here too. Those guys were really thinkin' outside the box.

If you stop and think about it, that engine kind of supports my skepticism about today's power guestimates of the OMC V8's. The Wizard would smoke anything else on the water with arguably close to double the horsepower of the rest. If I remember right, it had a pair of the old 2 liter powerheads, like the carbed T3's (but I might be wrong about that).

Another engine that had the "smoke the competition" capability was the OMC rotary. Although there were apparenly reliability issues, when it ran and stayed together, everybody else raced for second.

Ahhhhhhh, reminiscin' about the good ole' dayz and bench racin'. It's what keeps the hobby interesting for us ole' farts.:D

SportJ-US-1
06-21-2006, 11:16 AM
The Wizard was Fred H.'s brain child and if the boats could have stood up to the torque and horsepower of it they would have smoked everyone. A pair of 2 liter motors connected to the gearcase drive shaft with a blower belt arrangement. It was a simple design and the motor setup itself held up pretty well but the boats just flat broke out the transom everytime they ran it.

SportJ-US-1
06-21-2006, 11:35 AM
I though Fred's brother drove the boat, at least part of the time.

Raceman
06-21-2006, 12:35 PM
did you know my dad?

I remember the name, but I was a fan and wannabe, not a racer. I had a friend with Merc and he'd always get me a look at the covered boat bottoms, or a look behind the tent in the case of the T4 the first time it was at St. Louis, but other than an occasional passing comment with Billy, Reggie, or Earl, that was about as far as it went.

Juggernaut
06-21-2006, 01:02 PM
was the wizard around 500hp? i heard once that mercury made a 500hp outboard for something like only 1 year... if its not the wizard, has anybody else heard about it, or am i just surrounded by lunitics?

neveredge
06-21-2006, 01:08 PM
Those wizards were mean motors and could easily whip any V8. But as stated they never seemed able to build a transom to hold them.

I have some OMC litirature that references the wizards and how they dominated the V8s until they broke the boat. OMC was scared of that thing. Too bad Merc couldn't work the bugs out.

I also remember a V12 crossflow that was built in Australia in the early 80s. Basically 2 235s stacked one on top of another. It had 2 props, with the extra prop in front of the gearcase. I don't think they ever got it to work right.

neveredge
06-21-2006, 02:13 PM
I didn't mean motors as in plural I meant motors as in two powerheads.

Samantics anyway, it was very fast. And OMC was scared of it.

Bruce Washburn
06-21-2006, 03:01 PM
I think that there were a couple of boats that were thevictim of the Wizard motor. A Burgess and a Seebold.
I also remember Stevenson and Buck driving the Boat.

In the final of the Cinci race Mike Sebold lead for about 3 laps in a 2.4 factory motor. The motor had a major failure but the V-8's were starting to catch him. Mike kicked their ass off the beach. I think the V-8's were the carbed version at that time.

Mark75H
06-21-2006, 05:37 PM
Too bad Merc couldn't work the bugs out. I don't think Merc had any official connection with the Wizard, pretty sure it was a Jim Hauenstein privateer project. If I recall there was some laughing about the belt idea .... car & inboard drag racers told the Hauenstein's that a belt lasted them all season transmitting power in the range required by the WIzard's setup ..... but everyone on the Wizard project forgot that 8 or 9 seconds at a time doesn't add up to very many minutes in a whole drag racing season.

neveredge
06-21-2006, 05:51 PM
i will say that it was fast but OMC scared i don't think. i think maybe scared of being close to it when it came apart. not sure Gene or Benny were scared of anything.


OMC was playing king of the hill with the V8 back then and didn't want anything, ANYTHING to detract from that.

I don't think anyone who strapped a V8 on their tale was scared of anything. It must take some big balls to run one of those V8s to the limit.

Raceman
06-21-2006, 08:13 PM
There was a story in an old Powerboat Magazine about the V8 and the demise of the T4. I've looked repeatedly for the article, but I'm afraid after all these years the magazine fell victim to either a move, or the chunkin' of some of my stuff by an ex wife.:(

Anyhow, it went something like this: OMC and Merc teams showed up somewhere for a race............. I think St. Louis. Merc had the T4 and OMC the V8. OMC went into Federal Court and found a judge to give them an order declaring the T4 Merc to be illegal because there were not enough of em made to meet the minimum requirement for UIM rules. So with the T4 out, Bentz and Seebold stuck the 2.4 dropons on the same boats they were gonna run the T4's on, and went out and beat em. The article plainly said that the OMC's were faster, but that Billy and Earl did some blocking and other team driving tactics to keep em from passing.

Somebody somewhere has that old article. I wish they'd find it and post it, because my details are probably close, but not dead right. Sam??????

swamppanther
08-08-2006, 07:44 PM
If OMC did get a court order to have the T4 disqualified, and I have no
reason to doubt what you have said, It does sound to me that OMC went
to the Mercury handbook to get that tactic! There were alot of races that
if Mercury did not have a clear advantage over OMC, Mercury would boycott the race! There is already rumbling in Europe from Mercury concerning
Bombardier getting back into formula 1,It Seems that Bombardier may have to put the E Tec in a separate class if it wants to race!

Juggernaut
09-13-2006, 07:09 PM
so to sum it all up, which is the most powerful race engine? company/model/year

Mark75H
09-13-2006, 07:16 PM
The V-8 ... but it wasn't 500+ hp

150aintenuff
09-13-2006, 10:46 PM
the # I have read regarding the F-1 V8 was 415 hp... with offshore version being 385.... all of which being published by OMC or Second Effort... now wether even those ### were accurate who knows...

The Big Al
09-13-2006, 10:52 PM
Easy, wind and sail!!!!!

Mark75H
09-14-2006, 06:02 AM
the # I have read regarding the F-1 V8 was 415 hp... with offshore version being 385.... Sounds right to me

T2x
09-14-2006, 06:51 AM
the # I have read regarding the F-1 V8 was 415 hp... with offshore version being 385.... all of which being published by OMC or Second Effort... now wether even those ### were accurate who knows...

Interesting....I ran T4's offshore for Mercury...and they were stronger than any of the OMC Offshore V-8's....(The OMC's never really did anything of note in Offshore)..... At that time we gained about 15mph over the stock 300 3.4 Mercury's....... (82 mph to 97 Mph)... in a 30' Shadow (see below). Im guessing that was at least a 100 hp increase per motor.

This debate is far from over, and the truth is that both factories could "dial up" a potent engineering engine to bolster either side of this argument.

T2x

Raceman
09-14-2006, 07:11 AM
Interesting....I ran T4's offshore for Mercury...and they were stronger than any of the OMC Offshore V-8's....(The OMC's never really did anything of note in Offshore)..... At that time we gained about 15mph over the stock 300 3.4 Mercury's....... (82 mph to 97 Mph)... in a 30' Shadow (see below). Im guessing that was at least a 100 hp increase per motor.

This debate is far from over, and the truth is that both factories could "dial up" a potent engineering engine to bolster either side of this argument.

T2x

I have 3 factory T4 Powerheads and 2 factory 3.4 EFI High Perf powerheads which were run on the offshore boats. Generally speaking the high perf 3.4 EFI's were run on the offshores because they had adjustable timing and the larger alum flywheel and heavy duty starter from a Ford car, while the T4's had locked timing just like today's Champ motors and the smaller flyweel and starter from the 2.4 V6. Anyhow, one had 386@ 7200 on a paper tag wired on front of the injector. It didn't say torque or RPM, only those simple numbers, but I've always felt like it was some type of dyno reading.

blkmtrfan
09-14-2006, 07:29 AM
Norris and Rich, you two guys need to get together and put those 3.4's on a Shadow. Would look great running next to the wing :cool:

Fast Fred
09-14-2006, 07:49 AM
Anyhow, one had 386@ 7200 on a paper tag wired on front of the injector. It didn't say torque or RPM, only those simple numbers, but I've always felt like it was some type of dyno reading.
if it was makin 386@7200, it would have peaked More.:cool:

T2x
09-14-2006, 10:01 AM
I have 3 factory T4 Powerheads and 2 factory 3.4 EFI High Perf powerheads which were run on the offshore boats. Generally speaking the high perf 3.4 EFI's were run on the offshores because they had adjustable timing and the larger alum flywheel and heavy duty starter from a Ford car, while the T4's had locked timing just like today's Champ motors and the smaller flyweel and starter from the 2.4 V6. Anyhow, one had 386@ 7200 on a paper tag wired on front of the injector. It didn't say torque or RPM, only those simple numbers, but I've always felt like it was some type of dyno reading.

RM:

I'm aware of the 3.4 EFI's in Offshore. We ran T4's of which only three were made in an offshore configuration and which were, in fact, taken from the Tunnel boat inventory. These had locked timimg and a "football" lower unit which was a cut down MC I SSM....custom configured for those engines only.

I've heard many people say they ran T4's in offshore......but actually ran 3.4 EFI's.

T2x

T2x
09-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Norris and Rich, you two guys need to get together and put those 3.4's on a Shadow. Would look great running next to the wing :cool:

Nah....... I'm into Wings now...... and Norris never actually runs his old stuff.

T2x

T2x
09-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Besides this was much neater than a Shadow with T-4's

T2x

blkmtrfan
09-14-2006, 02:00 PM
Besides this was much neater than a Shadow with T-4's

T2x

I will give you that :cool:

OK one of those running with the wing :D

Juggernaut
09-14-2006, 05:38 PM
quad mercs.my new favorite boat :)

Mark75H
09-14-2006, 05:56 PM
quad mercs.my new favorite boat :)

Maybe this will be your next "new favorite":


http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101590&d=1139072132

T2x
09-15-2006, 06:44 AM
Maybe this will be your next "new favorite":


http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101590&d=1139072132


Nah........ this had more power...and was A LOT faster........

T2x:p

outboard bob
09-15-2006, 07:42 AM
Nah........ this had more power...and was A LOT faster........

T2x:p
Rich I am sure that those big V6's on that cat really moved out.

Juggernaut
09-15-2006, 04:28 PM
hahahaha thats great. whats the fuel capacity on that thing?
they should have done pics for the mercury catalog..lol

AirRide
09-16-2006, 08:13 PM
The black Rolling Thunder boat had 2 Litre powerheads on it, say...circa 1984. AirRide

T2x
09-18-2006, 01:23 PM
The black Rolling Thunder boat had 2 Litre powerheads on it, say...circa 1984. AirRide


That is correct......... 117 mph on the first test run at Lake X with 4 people on board......... Never tried another set of props, changed engine heights or any additional testing...... At that time the Modified class Kilo record was 10 mph slower....... The boat was a rocketship...and deserved a much longer development program........

We have video of it dusting off the Modified World Champion, Jesse James, another boat we developed, in 4-6 foot seas........

My favorite all time project...

T2x

AirRide
09-19-2006, 04:27 PM
who was it, that owned it, at that time? I can't remember. AirRide

150aintenuff
09-19-2006, 11:47 PM
That is correct......... 117 mph on the first test run at Lake X with 4 people on board......... Never tried another set of props, changed engine heights or any additional testing

T2x



didnt look like there was ever a reason 2 do any more testing.....sounds dialed to me...

T2x
09-20-2006, 06:11 AM
who was it, that owned it, at that time? I can't remember. AirRide

Vince Rinaldi.......

T2x
09-20-2006, 06:12 AM
didnt look like there was ever a reason 2 do any more testing.....sounds dialed to me...

It had ...at least....10 more MPH available.

T2x

Laker
01-24-2007, 01:42 PM
Sorry to drag this thread up to the surface but I have some Ideas on this topic.
It always seemed to me the original F1 class was a Purely designed, organized, and promoted OMC Event. Each team had to get their boats, engines and approved drivers/teams that must be blessed by OMC. The boats were huge, the motors screamed but who would know what was fast since everything was OMC.. Johnson or Evinrude motors and different sponsors made it seem like everyone was independent but it was all a tightly controlled OMC Event It seemed. As time went on and OMC Lost market share/lost sales Ect.. The F1 class was opened up to more and more people and privateers as long as you ran the boat type and OMC F1 engine you were let into the club.
Then came along Mercury Marine and its Much lighter and more efficient 60 degree V6. The early Tuber 2.0L champ motor was known to make 250-290hp Every day on any dyno you could strap them to. Lighter, faster revving and Very Modern seabold tunnel hull engineering led to a package that could keep up to the Bigger, older V8 F1 OMC despite a Serious torque deficit. This was a real challenge for OMC that was never addressed. I remember OMC Updating hulls as they did engines, with EFI and bigger displacements. However with EPA Mandating and OMC Production engine sales failing for every reason you can imagine… the racing budget started to crumble.
The 500++HP numbers are pure wet dreams im sure. The only way an OMC F1 V8 made that kind of power was in the World speed record built engines running on Nitrous oxide and alcohol. Mr. Strang told a group of us at an Antique outboard Mini Nationals in Tomahawk WI, years ago that the V8 F1 motors “Are a good amount over 400hp”
To me that makes sense (I imagine 420ish HP is accurate) the way the early mercs and then later 2.5l Champ mercs on smaller boats, ran with or around the V8s on bigger/heavier hulls.
The most powerful outboard? OMC V8 F1 I’m sure.. Rotary OMC race motor? Ahh… dreams of one on a dyno keeps me awake at night. Surely the most exotic award goes to Outboard Marine Corps. (Unless one of these 400+hp Verados ever emerge.. lol) Imagine a boat built that was equal enough to let the V8 and V6 compete on a level playing field … The biggest problem with this debate is the Mercs and OMC motors, BRP Even to this day are built to their own specs independently.
Get some F1 class rules that let the 3.3-3.5ish Liter motors run together (OH and they MUST all spin over 8500rpms….) and then we will really have some good racing. :rolleyes: :cool:

Guy Hanson
01-24-2007, 06:11 PM
Did you see and hear the Rotary on the Dyno, or is it purely just a lustful imagination ? I like your summary of this discussion topic, i think your points all make good sense and we do have to give it to OMC for there ingenuity which is often overlooked these days.

Laker
01-24-2007, 07:40 PM
lustful imagination... AND Lost sleep only. I probably went 20 years between the first Rotary motor sighting and the next.
Today with the internet we have allot at our fingertips but still no hard data..
The future could be amazing if some would belly up to dyno..:)

This topic is aways fun.:cool:

Laker
01-24-2007, 08:13 PM
OK think of this one.
AN Engine rules class that is 2.5-3.5L And a spec boat with weights allowing for different displacements and Induction systems.
How about a carb 3.0 V8 running with a modern 2.5 F1 next to a 3.3 Etec F1 motor...
A T3 and and T4 runing with a Opti Max 300x all on the same track at the same time!.... Dust off the old hardware and lets have some fun!!
Get some TV, Life ensurance and health care sponsors involved and we might just have an event...

Guy Hanson
01-25-2007, 06:33 AM
;) That all sounds MAD , now your talking, big speed,big speed and a big noise! Lets do it!!!!:p

Bruce Washburn
01-25-2007, 08:05 AM
The class you just described is Mod U. Less than 2800cc's you weigh 1050. Over 2800cc's the eweight goes up to 1200 minimum. It has beena awhile since I read the rules but I think any forced induction (super charger or turbo) would fall inthe 1200 minimum weight. While most of the V-8 are long gone, Benny Robinson ran his V-8 in 3.0L and 3.5 L form up into the late 1990's. Yes it was interesting and fun to race or watch. Benny also had some head to head races with Bill Seebold at the nationals when Billy ran the 2.5. I remember Benny winning most of the races. I do think Billy also won a couple. Benny ran an all composite Velden with some very good FI formula 1 V-8's. The nationals was a relatively long course at the time. I do not think that one of the F1 V-8 Carb motors would not even be in the hunt. Keep in mind that the F1 fuel injected V-8 was built as a race motor from the ground up. The crank had smaller bearings, the rods were different, the block was different, etc. It was not a hot rod version of the fishing motor. They would turn big RPMs and stay together. (I know some are able to turn the v-6 Omc's up in drag conditions but I can tell you that the componets will not live much over 9000 for 50 laps in and out of the water. Dean Pink and Ron Gray had a v-4 Looper that hauled ass in Formula 100. It was a 2L V-4. They could run with the SSt 140's at the time. The problem was that they could not turn it much over 9K without the rods coming apart. The V-8 F1's did not have that problem)

Here is the best comparison that I can make based on what I have seen. On a long race course the V-8 has top speed and can still pull strong in and out of the turns. Becuase of the extra mass and size the boats would go over some very nasty water. The V-8's also dig bigger holes in the turns which are a pain in the ass to go over with the smaller merc boat. On a short course the V-6 2.5 will usually beat the V-8 off the beach and to the turn. The V-6 boat is more nimble. Depending on the course the V-8 will have a tough time getting around the 2.5L on a short course. I would give the 2.5 the edge on a short course. The 2.5's have continued to evolve and the boats are faster and quicker than before. On a long skinny course I think the v-8 would still have the edge(especiallyif it was real rough). If you remember most of the V-8 Formula 1 courses were long and skinny river courses. Since this was an OMC run deal at the time, do you think that they did that for a reason. HMMMM?

LIQUID NIRVANA
01-25-2007, 06:59 PM
E-Tec 3.3F1. MMMMMMMMMMMM

Bruce Washburn
01-26-2007, 08:41 AM
I would love to see other brands back in mod U, Champ, F1 etc. The challenge is that most of these efforts would be done by individuals out of pocket. You could use Merc or old Omc mids and gear cases. adapters could be made. The challenge would be developing the motor program that would be competitive and live. It can be done but it takes time and money to make it work. It is a hell of alot easier to run a Merc. Most of the work and development has already been done. That is why you see so many in Champ and F1. That is not to say that a Yamaha or E Tec would not work. it is just easier to go buy the merc stuff already to run.

jackie wilson
03-26-2007, 11:32 AM
the designation of an outboard and i quote the u.i.m. rulebook "it shall be removable from the hull complete with its drive" Just to be arsy, after G.Garbrecht ,head honcho for mercury and i had a somewhat heated argument, when i was drummed out of the brownies [ mercury race team ] I told him i would build my own outboard and " stuff him ". You say these things when someone really p------s you off. So with the help of the mighty Keith Duckworth [Cosworth Engineering} we cobbled together a mercury stern drive and a cosworth D.F.V. 3 litre motor, in le mans trim. ie. good for a 24 hr race of some 450 hp at the shaft. We ran this rig all over europe and america, never had a failure of any description, [Ignore the sticky gearcase it took 30 mins to change in Parker. and the authorities ie. the uim had to admit ,----------it was an outboard. So i think i can chuck this one at you as PROBABLY ? the worlds most powerful outboard. I was often told that this was not in "SPIRIT OF THE RULES". MY ANSWER HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SAME. I DIDN'T WRITE THE RULES. Jackie Wilson

jackie wilson
03-27-2007, 10:20 AM
didn't Johnny Sanders take a 12 cylinder merc to Bristol in the early 70's, believe it was belt driven drive. Made one hell of a noise, but never ran long enough to even qualify. Bentz and Seebold were Quicker with the T4's. Think it was a product from the imagination of Doc Morgan , Fred And Jimmy Hauenstien. Ask Fred ---------The 25 years are up so it can't still be covered by mercury's official secret clause J.W.

Mark75H
03-27-2007, 03:45 PM
didn't Johnny Sanders take a 12 cylinder merc to Bristol in the early 70's, believe it was belt driven drive. Made one hell of a noise, but never ran long enough to even qualify. Bentz and Seebold were Quicker with the T4's. Think it was a product from the imagination of Doc Morgan , Fred And Jimmy Hauenstien. Ask Fred ---------The 25 years are up so it can't still be covered by mercury's official secret clause J.W.

Jim and Fred, no factory

jackie wilson
03-27-2007, 04:05 PM
gimme a first or last name and i''ll guess you in 2. unless you fly friggin v dubs

Raceman
03-27-2007, 05:07 PM
didn't Johnny Sanders take a 12 cylinder merc to Bristol in the early 70's, believe it was belt driven drive. Made one hell of a noise, but never ran long enough to even qualify. Bentz and Seebold were Quicker with the T4's. Think it was a product from the imagination of Doc Morgan , Fred And Jimmy Hauenstien. Ask Fred ---------The 25 years are up so it can't still be covered by mercury's official secret clause J.W.

It was called the Wizard and had 2 powerheads coupled with a blower belt. As far as I ever heard, the thing was REAL fast, but they had transom issues with the boat, not engine failures. As far as the T4 comparison, they didn't come around until the late 70's. I believe the first one I ever saw was at St. Louis in '78, but it could've been '77.

Mark75H
03-27-2007, 05:55 PM
There were some powerhead issues ... I think it was mostly related to the belt and not the actual motors, but that may have been resolved before showing up at races.

mbd29
03-27-2007, 08:21 PM
Jackie: Who died and appointed you King? Oh I forgot you did!! God you haven't changed a bit. Constantly yapping.:) :) :) I thought you were pushing 100 not 75. I know you look about 100 years old.

jackie wilson
03-28-2007, 03:07 AM
stop picking on juniors, i was born looking mature, and the lines are called melloware. And i bet your not the prettiest daisy in the garden, are all senior members this crochety hiding behind smileys. You can't be the original Mr Ugly--------G.G. he popped his clogs over a year ago, on a golf course. Long live juniors, cheer up all you seniors, i can remember when you were happy and making legends and memories. Come on wake up start throwing things at me, i can take it. Jackie P.S. Never wanted to be king, but greatness gets thrust upon one , and i carry the burden modestly and with dignity. Go fly your V/DUB Butler.

mbd29
03-28-2007, 06:14 AM
Jackie: Good to hear from you. You will sure give everyone on this site a little boost with your wit and knowledge of all things boat racing.

willabee
03-28-2007, 04:09 PM
Wow, 75 years.....back in the day, Pruett always said Merten was the oldest in the group and vice-versa.....had they only known.....it must have been the long locks that saved you from receiving that honor.

Here's a little test for those old memory banks of yours, what does it say in the white rectangle in front of your number in the photo below.....if you can recall what it says, how did you acquire them?

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 02:59 AM
Wow, 75 years.....back in the day, Pruett always said Merten was the oldest in the group and vice-versa.....had they only known.....it must have been the long locks that saved you from receiving that honor.

Here's a little test for those old memory banks of yours, what does it say in the white rectangle in front of your number in the photo below.....if you can recall what it says, how did you acquire them?

I recall the time we all sat in the black cat sleaze bar, downtown oshberg .Garbrecht, Pruett, merton, Kabasta, Snieder, Byers, never was a drinking man till you guys showed me how to drink CC7, got carried back to best western by Leo Bannacheck. You guys were flashing your i/ds, when i realized you were merely children i had a mad fit of depression and started on the CC7's again, but you never did see my i/d As to the sticker, somethings nagging at the back of my mind, but i can't put my finger on it, but i will before the weeks through. Gotta go, drinkie-poo time, Jilly just poured me a large CC7. Been my only drink for the last 37 years.

willabee
03-29-2007, 08:33 AM
I recall the time we all sat in the black cat sleaze bar, downtown oshberg

It was called Judy's Gin Mill, and it wasn't sleazy.....it's just that the experienced knew to make sure the cap was still on the beverage of their choice when it was thrown to them.

BTW, your post says it's 2:59 A.M.....the large CC7 that was just poured for you, is it starting your day or ending it?

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 08:48 AM
musta really tied one on, how could you ever forget a name like JUDY'S GIN MILL. course it's not sleazy-----they just float the dead ones out the back door. Is the left flank still there? used to be run by a coupla ex G/B/Packers. Does Dick Snyder still live on that little island on the even littler pond.Does Ritchie Powers still think a vette is a cool car. Tell him Seebold just bought a baby-crap yellow one. UGH is that ever Non-cool.

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 08:56 AM
yup, and they would have given you a brand new Velden to put it on, they were so short of drivers ,they called in guys from the lower classes to make up the numbers . FACT. Check with Fred H,

willabee
03-29-2007, 09:06 AM
:confused:
yup, and they would have given you a brand new Velden to put it on, they were so short of drivers ,they called in guys from the lower classes to make up the numbers . FACT. Check with Fred H,

What are you talking about.....did I miss something?

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 09:24 AM
you just gotta forgive people of my age, there i was browsing through the pages and this guy asked if you could walk into an omc dealership and buy a v8 off the shelf in 1985. THATS WHAT THE COMMENT WAS. SORREEEEE.

willabee
03-29-2007, 09:34 AM
you just gotta forgive people of my age,

No I don't, get your act together .....You ain't gonna figure out the decals in the photo or the source either.

What sterndrive did you run on this?

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 10:22 AM
It Was An Alpha One. Chucked The Regular Gearcase And Fitted A Sportsmaster Changed The Gear Ratio To 1.65/1 And Rolla Made A 3 Blade 17', By 10' But Was Worked A Bit Before We Got It Right. Bet You $10 I Get The Decals Before The End Of The Week

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 10:44 AM
As If Anybody Is Really Interested In The Formation And Early Life Of Formula 1. I Will Just Throw A Few Comments In. F1 First Appeared At Bristol And Was The Brain Child Of Charlie Sheppard Who Was A Great Commodore ,boatbuilder And Founder Of The Bristol G.p. He Simply Divided The Boats Into 4 Categories Or Formula's . It Worked So Well, The World And Its Grandmother Started Fighting For The Rights To Own Formula I. When The 2 Factories Stopped Competing .fonda Started Its Own Series[formula One Drivers Association]. Starting To Get Interested. You Should Get Hold Of David Parkinson And Freddie Hauenstein . Find Out More About The Dirty Tricks That Went On Over The Title Fi.

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 10:52 AM
Sorry to drag this thread up to the surface but I have some Ideas on this topic.
It always seemed to me the original F1 class was a Purely designed, organized, and promoted OMC Event. Each team had to get their boats, engines and approved drivers/teams that must be blessed by OMC. The boats were huge, the motors screamed but who would know what was fast since everything was OMC.. Johnson or Evinrude motors and different sponsors made it seem like everyone was independent but it was all a tightly controlled OMC Event It seemed. As time went on and OMC Lost market share/lost sales Ect.. The F1 class was opened up to more and more people and privateers as long as you ran the boat type and OMC F1 engine you were let into the club.
Then came along Mercury Marine and its Much lighter and more efficient 60 degree V6. The early Tuber 2.0L champ motor was known to make 250-290hp Every day on any dyno you could strap them to. Lighter, faster revving and Very Modern seabold tunnel hull engineering led to a package that could keep up to the Bigger, older V8 F1 OMC despite a Serious torque deficit. This was a real challenge for OMC that was never addressed. I remember OMC Updating hulls as they did engines, with EFI and bigger displacements. However with EPA Mandating and OMC Production engine sales failing for every reason you can imagine… the racing budget started to crumble.
The 500++HP numbers are pure wet dreams im sure. The only way an OMC F1 V8 made that kind of power was in the World speed record built engines running on Nitrous oxide and alcohol. Mr. Strang told a group of us at an Antique outboard Mini Nationals in Tomahawk WI, years ago that the V8 F1 motors “Are a good amount over 400hp”
To me that makes sense (I imagine 420ish HP is accurate) the way the early mercs and then later 2.5l Champ mercs on smaller boats, ran with or around the V8s on bigger/heavier hulls.
The most powerful outboard? OMC V8 F1 I’m sure.. Rotary OMC race motor? Ahh… dreams of one on a dyno keeps me awake at night. Surely the most exotic award goes to Outboard Marine Corps. (Unless one of these 400+hp Verados ever emerge.. lol) Imagine a boat built that was equal enough to let the V8 and V6 compete on a level playing field … The biggest problem with this debate is the Mercs and OMC motors, BRP Even to this day are built to their own specs independently.
Get some F1 class rules that let the 3.3-3.5ish Liter motors run together (OH and they MUST all spin over 8500rpms….) and then we will really have some good racing. :rolleyes: :cool:
KEITH DUCKWORTH OF COSWORTH HAD THE BEST IDEA FOR FORMULA 1 IT WAS MAXIMUM 2 LITRES-----GIVE EM 5 GALLONS OF GAS AND A 5 MILE COURSE. FIRST OVER THE LINE WINS. YOU CAN GET 500 HP FOR 1 MINUTE OR 330 FOR 10 MINS . LET IT SORT ITSELF OUT

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 12:08 PM
No I don't, get your act together .....You ain't gonna figure out the decals in the photo or the source either.

What sterndrive did you run on this?

JUST REMEMBERED --LENT THE BOAT TO PRUETT FOR THE PARIS RACE. HIS GUY WAS MERRICK LEWIS MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OF HIS DECALS I'M TRYING -----I'M TRYING------IT'S DRIVING ME NUTS.

willabee
03-29-2007, 12:47 PM
JUST REMEMBERED --LENT THE BOAT TO PRUETT FOR THE PARIS RACE. HIS GUY WAS MERRICK LEWIS MAY HAVE BEEN ONE OF HIS DECALS I'M TRYING -----I'M TRYING------IT'S DRIVING ME NUTS.

You're going the wrong way.....look much closer to home(the mirror would be appropriate). They were first seen at the race in the picture and I recall as others saw them and talked to you, they began to use what it said also :).

use: that's kind of a trick hint

jackie wilson
03-29-2007, 04:04 PM
Couldn't Have Been The Old Original 'racing For Fun' ?

willabee
03-29-2007, 10:38 PM
Couldn't Have Been The Old Original 'racing For Fun' ?

You read the "look in the mirror" hint and came up with 'racing for fun'?.....you must know how easy it would be to take a dozen or so shots at that statement.....yes, you're right, it couldn't have been.....

jackie wilson
03-30-2007, 03:20 AM
O.k.------o.k. You Spring A Surprise Question At Me About A 27 Year Old Sticker On A Boat I Blew Over 10 Mins After The Picture Was Taken-----took My Nose Clean Off-----had 127 Stiches To Put This Strawberry I Got For A Snotter Back On----left Needles Hospital Leaving Joe Fielder [who Blew His Twin Engined Molinari Over] Still There----------went To Vegas --stayed At Ceasers Place------mercury Had Won The Race------sirois In A Twin Engined Molinari. We Shared The Winnings-----12 Drivers -------$4,522. 50 Cents Apiece-----i Spent $2, 417. 20 On A Mercury Snowmobile--------special Deal From Fon Du Lac. Sold It 2 Years Later For A Massive Profit, But I''ll Be Damned If I Can Remember That Sticker-----------still Got 2 Days And I Won't Cheat

willabee
03-30-2007, 12:38 PM
O.k.------o.k. You Spring A Surprise Question At Me About A 27 Year Old Sticker On A Boat I Blew Over 10 Mins After The Picture Was Taken----- But I''ll Be Damned If I Can Remember That Sticker-----------still Got 2 Days And I Won't Cheat

Closer to 37 years, but as I recall, you always said that "Charm" was your strong suit :rolleyes:.

So you don't go crazy over the wekend, here's an offer. If you would like, I can give you three hints that will lead you to the answers of what they said and how you acquired same. I can lead you to a picture of the person that gave them to you.....if that doesn't ring any bells, lead you to a picture that includes the persons name.....and if you still can't recall what they said, lead you to that answer.

You don't have to use the hints, they would just be available. You said you won't cheat. Let me know soon if you would like the hints.

jackie wilson
03-30-2007, 12:54 PM
no-no-no-no-noooooooooo it couldnt be the old war cry. if i remember it was butler who had them printed------------------------------- BLOODY HOO RAY IT HAS TO BE YOU QWE ME $10

willabee
03-30-2007, 01:36 PM
no-no-no-no-noooooooooo it couldnt be the old war cry. if i remember it was butler who had them printed------------------------------- BLOODY HOO RAY IT HAS TO BE YOU QWE ME $10

Congratulations, you're half way there.....yep, the good ol' Bloody HooRay :D. That's why I said people using what they said was kind of a trick hint. People would read them, talk to you and walk away saying things like "Bloody HooRay, it sure is a nice day".

Now you've got to figure out who gave them to you.....Butler wasn't there in 1970. Hints.....A very handsome lad (that leaves Butler out again :D), you and the friend you brought to Renato's shop (I don't remember his name) for the 1970 Paris race tried in vain to get this guy to enjoy tea with you every morning (there wasn't enough cream in the world to make your tea taste good), was the real force behind the race team :rolleyes:, he even introduced Molly Ballou to you as our "Den Mother", a term I see you still use to this day.....that should be enough, but if you need more, let me know. Based on what you have said so far, I don't think you remember him.

jackie wilson
03-31-2007, 01:32 AM
That Could't Be Jim Could It Nah!!!!!! I'm Dreaming Again

jackie wilson
03-31-2007, 03:29 AM
Congratulations, you're half way there.....yep, the good ol' Bloody HooRay :D. That's why I said people using what they said was kind of a trick hint. People would read them, talk to you and walk away saying things like "Bloody HooRay, it sure is a nice day".

Now you've got to figure out who gave them to you.....Butler wasn't there in 1970. Hints.....A very handsome lad (that leaves Butler out again :D), you and the friend you brought to Renato's shop (I don't remember his name) for the 1970 Paris race tried in vain to get this guy to enjoy tea with you every morning (there wasn't enough cream in the world to make your tea taste good), was the real force behind the race team :rolleyes:, he even introduced Molly Ballou to you as our "Den Mother", a term I see you still use to this day.....that should be enough, but if you need more, let me know. Based on what you have said so far, I don't think you remember him.

i'm pretty sure i remember everyone connected with Mercury, it was a family thing. The nicest collection of people in the world doing the thing they loved most 'RACING'. So let's see Les Cohoun. Hetzel was only a kid then, Gorlitz. Think i need more clues

jackie wilson
03-31-2007, 05:22 AM
I Hope This Finds You In Good Health And Still Having Fun.
hey jim, how the hell are you!!!!! still in florida ? still playing boats ? How in the world do you ever get to be a ;PLATIGNUM" team member ? me----i'm a junior and loving it.!!!!! still like to stir the pot a little and kick the old timber and see what sort of worm comes out. remember the drive back across the states after pruett went swimming with a busted hip. Even before that he could never walk a straight line. Do you ever see was it Donna or any of the kids ? Those were the original "HAPPY DAYS"

willabee
03-31-2007, 10:03 AM
i'm pretty sure i remember everyone connected with Mercury, it was a family thing. The nicest collection of people in the world doing the thing they loved most 'RACING'. So let's see Les Cohoun. Hetzel was only a kid then, Gorlitz. Think i need more clues

Obviously, not everyone.....okay, this is the last hint. Go to the "Hot Singles" thread, page 16, post #238. It's already clear that this guy didn't make much of an impression on you, and if you can't ID him from this hint, it will be safe to say he didn't make any impression.....period :(.

Hetzel was never a kid.....he came out of the shoot bald and old :).....Les Cahoon (sp) hadn't arrived at Merc yet and I don't remember what Mike Goerlitz was doing in 1970, maybe selling props?

jackie wilson
04-04-2007, 02:32 AM
yeah jim i think your right. Joan used to work in reception at Mercury before Pruett sweet talked her into throwing it all away and running off with him. He could charm the hind legs off a donkey. Donna was one of the girls. Can't believe i haven't spoken to her in all these years. Whats with the "I HAVE SEVERAL BOATS" bit. You can only use 'em one at a time, it's not like you can put one on each foot. I just bought a 28' searay with a 315 yanmar, bringing it over here to the south of france to do a spot of fishing , skiing with my grandkids, and canal cruising with my wife. Sorry i was a little late replying , but went up to Paris for a long weekend.J.

jackie wilson
04-04-2007, 06:52 AM
Obviously, not everyone.....okay, this is the last hint. Go to the "Hot Singles" thread, page 16, post #238. It's already clear that this guy didn't make much of an impression on you, and if you can't ID him from this hint, it will be safe to say he didn't make any impression.....period :(.

Hetzel was never a kid.....he came out of the shoot bald and old :).....Les Cahoon (sp) hadn't arrived at Merc yet and I don't remember what Mike Goerlitz was doing in 1970, maybe selling props?

Thanks a bunch, i'm kinda new to little screens an web site thingies, but i did what you said and went to "HOT SINGLES" up to now ,i got 30 offers of a bed for the night-----6 proposals of marriage and an offer from elton john to play joseph.!!!!!! Got any more vague hints i might follow through. You may not have made a great impression originally, but after my forthcoming divorce [unless i can wiggle my way out of it] i sure as hell ain't gonna forget you in a hurry buddy. -------just kidding------- J.

jackie wilson
04-04-2007, 11:05 AM
could this be ------------chunky------my best friends american mecknick mate CHAS!!!!!!! my mecknick for 10yrs ------no ------- now i'm having dicky fits how dumb am i does gene still have a job . you must have been pensioned off years ago. say i'm dreaming and gone to heaven. The words --what a pillock come to mind getting close I THINK SO!!!!!!

jackie wilson
04-05-2007, 04:49 AM
had a bad night , got to thinking who this devious bugger could be -----who used to play both ends against the middle-----who was the string puller--mr nice guy with a derringer-----came to europe a lot-----through all the management changes ----still there when it was all change at mercury----mate of Pruett--- didn't drive but might have done a long time ago-----there is only one person left that this could be-----------looks like a 1940's hollywood gangster [ Gerald Mohr i think his name was] smooth talking , silky tongued, girls always picked him out first-------and dumped him first. If i got this wrong, then there's egg on my face----------- no this guy DID arrange to have BLOODY HOORAY put on the boat. He was a pretty boy. Not like Garbrecht who i christened UGLY down in Como-------------------IT'S GOTTA BE --WELCH------WILLIAM WELCH--------BILL WELCH. Now get that $10 out of that moth eaten wallet you never ever open.---------------------Sorry it took so long, but 37 yrs is quite a while, should 'ave got it before when you said you introduced "the den mother" to me.

willabee
04-05-2007, 11:40 AM
:cool:
, girls always picked him out first-------and dumped him first.

Finally.....yep, it's me :), and your description is right on, even down to the "they dumped him first" detail (you really didn't have to tell everyone about that). However, I suspect that mbd29 (Mr. Butler) may have had a hand in this. I think that I'll keep the ol' wallet closed until I'm convinced that you didn't cheat. After all, how can you trust a guy that runs an inboard in an outboard race?

jackie wilson
04-05-2007, 11:54 AM
If he opens his mouth -----he's lying. Of all the no good -------------never even knew butler was still alive for certain. but then again niether did half the staff at mercury. Didn't cheat finding out who the sneaky gheekie was. Good old fashioned sniffing.----- And a memory like an elephant. In fact ,there's a picture of a guy you don't know the name of------Looks like Zimmerman to me.-------Copped it in a minor hydro race when he was one of G,G.'s main men. Love the F.B.I. tales. Do you know i had a golden labrador that lived to be 15 yrs old, he was the most affable ,faithful, cantankerous mutley that was ever born ----------he was called PRUETT.!! swear to god , thats the truth and nothing but. J.

jackie wilson
04-05-2007, 12:02 PM
you gotta admit when that cosworth turned up at bristol 2 mins before the close of time trials and pissed all over the elite mercury team,Garbrecht was spitting feathers. Tried every trick in the book , even joined forces with O.M.C. to get it banned, but we had done the homework and it WAS an outboard !!!!!!! How d'ya like them apples baby ?????? Was the most fun time i ever had in my life

robert j garner
04-11-2007, 01:56 PM
It was great to watch you thundering around bristol in the cosworth
and then do it all over again at chasewater at the OZ's worlds that
truly was a awsome boat.


Rob.

jackie wilson
04-12-2007, 03:18 AM
Hi Robert, before the boat hit the water in bristol, we had about 1hr testing at chasewater. Then a mad dash to get the boat in the water before qualifying finished. we had just 2 mins to put a hot lap in. To this day ,whenever i think about that lap and the look on Garbrechts face , i smile to myself. Cocked it up by spinning out on the far turn whilst leading the field in the race. Incidently, Mercury and Cosworth Engineering got together big time and did a whole load of projects using the 3 litre V8 Ford Cosworth motor. Petty put a boat together for Bentz to run the Miami marine stadium in the K.T. class, He was supposed to run behind and take them at the end. Bentz had other ideas, he lapped the entire field in 3 laps. Mr Rickeys Girl friend DEE, was running 'BIG DEE' and he came screaming into the pits, he was gonn a get us disqualified for running an 'UN AMERICAN ' motor. thought he was about to drop dead, he was so mad.

robert j garner
04-12-2007, 01:43 PM
Hi Jackie

Me and the old man (jim garner ) were at the bottom turn and
saw you spin i would not like to see the bill if it had rolled !!! we
were more worried you were going to get black flagged when the
wing came loose great stuff to watch when your seventeen :D .

Was it true that you put one sponson on the bank to pass Tom
percival at fairford on the back straight.

How did you do at parker with the cosworth i asked this question
on here a few years ago but nobody replied.

Regards Rob.

PS do you think anyone else on here knows that Walt Disney
paid you to drive a boat for him:D :D :D .

jackie wilson
04-12-2007, 03:01 PM
Well You Could Have Knocked Me Down With A Teen Age Blonde When You Said Your Dad Was Jim Garner !!!! Jim And I Had A Friendship That Lasted Many Years, Tell Him I Said Hi. Tom And I Had Some Great Battles On And Off The Racecourse. When I Bought The First Molinari To England And Found Tom Skulking Round It With A Tape Meadure And Threatened To Rectum Him With It. He Took It All In His Stride --------but He Never Did Measure Anything Else Of Mine. Yeah ,that Was The Time Tom Tried To Put Me On Top Of A Bouy , Hr Should Have Known Better. At Parker In 78 The Boat Ran Like Clockwork. We Decided To Change The Gearcase After 4 Hrs As A Safety Measure. The Damned Thing Would Not Come Off. It Took Gerry Gilbreath And A Bunch Of Friendly American Boat Fans 35 Mins To Do The Job. That Was The Only Hiccup Of The Whole Race. We Still Finished 7th Overall And Won The Inboard Class Dy Over 100 Miles. They Awarded The Inboard Trophy To Jack D'eath On The Grounds I Was Running An 'un-american Engine. [ Just A Ford V8] . And Working For 'the Mouse' Was A Great Experience.

Watermark
04-13-2007, 10:07 AM
Hi Jackie.. found this clipping from Powerboat Magazine (1976)... mentions you brought a KT to Valleyfield and ran in the Invitational race against the Grand Prix Hydros... Can't remember details .. I was running Mod 100 then.. how did you decide to race in Canada that year? The article mentions you ran a Mercury powered boat?

My Best,
Mark Rotharmel

jackie wilson
04-13-2007, 11:55 AM
Hey Mark, after all these years we finally get to talk. Tell me, when you first got that little molinari, was it painted black with a white arrow down each side of the deck.[i have a good reason for asking this] The K.T.boat was in actual fact, a 2 litre Cosworth 4 cyl. about 285 h.p. att to a merc stern drive. The only class the organisers could find for me was with the grand prix hydros. Nearly made it first in the first heat, but had to back off 'cos i was way too early, Joe Banomi and the rest of the field came by and each one of 'em dumped 50 gallons a minute onto my lap, Took 2 laps to clear it's throat before i got the thing hummin, but as you know at Valleyfield, everything is 3 heats, so i finished last. Second heat fared a little better but got tucked up behind Joe again, he would piss by me on the straight and i would turn inside him and he would douse me down as he passed me. finished about 4th i think. Last heat got a real flier and took the inside line, the rest of em ran really wide and i managed to stay away from them all for 2 laps but Joe and another guy too k me before the finish line. Was determined to have another go at them the following weekend at Cornwall or was it Bohrnwall we did a few practise runs and i knew i had the measure of them , But because of bad weather the committee called the race and we shared the prize money, Great pity that, it would have been a lot closer race that time, But what a great bunch of guys they were, we drank and ate and celebrated for a week., and Jim Thompson was top man. Can tell you some wild tales about that trip and the journey back past lake george, and how my mechanic tried to buy the Washington bridge. Good ole days

Watermark
04-13-2007, 04:19 PM
Jackie, you were very brave indeed to run with the GP's on Valleyfield's long course.. (with wide turns designed specifically for hydros on a mission to set speed records). Our Mod U guys tried to set up a match race on more than one occasion, but the organizers would never allow it.. frankly, we should thank our lucky stars.. if we didn't get the inside lane, they would have creamed us .. water would still be coming out of our ears!

Your Cosworth, on the other hand, would have given them fits in Cornwall - a tighter course is all you needed. Had you per chance beat the GP's at their own game in Valleyfield? ...the town would have gone nuts... and it would not have been pretty. In fact, you most likely would have gone to jail.

I think the last time I saw you was in Parker '79. I too had gearcase issues.. went through three of them.. finished 10th. I do rememeber what a great looking boat you had - very exciting to watch.

To answer your question, that Molinari in the photo was driven by Earl Bentz before I got it. Earl drove it in '74.

Great to be reading your stories here ... always enjoyed seeing your name in print - a racing hero to many.

Cheers!

Mark

Watermark
04-13-2007, 04:24 PM
Jackie.. an afterthought.. when Earl drove the Molinari, it was painted flat black.. with a yellow graphic (and arrow stripe) ..

jackie wilson
04-14-2007, 02:45 AM
mark, I am fairly certain the boat was the one i had Angelo build specially for me. It was shorter and much lighter than the rest of the team boats. G.G. wanted me to run in the O.I.class. The boat proved to be particularly good and after windermere G.G.wanted the boat back in america for Havasu, so we had a difference of opinion and i was given the bullet. { mercury had paid for the boat and motor and G.G. did not like being called names} But i was of the opinion i should have kept the boat!!!!!!!! I got angelo to paint the boat black much against his will. he was a very supersticious guy and was convinced black could mean nothing but trouble, and said he would never do another black boat. When the bigger motor was put on it ,they moved the batteries forward in front of the steering, and i understand it did away with some of its ' WALKING' tendencies. Towards the end of the parker race, Bentz came by ,well in the lead, so i thought we could play a little. i went by him at the top end and we played tag for a while. great fun. After the race Earl came over and said "jackie---------just how fast does that f------- boat go???? looked him straight in the eye and said " damned if i know Bentz, i never had the balls to run it flat out. info on the boat-------- !9' Hodges Cosworth 3 litre in Le Mans mode ie. 24 hrs @ 10,000 rpm. = 450 hp. All the while i had the boat i never dared run more than 8,500 rpm. It had a nasty habit of waving the inside sponson @ about 125 mph. Which equates to 8,500 revs. and we never did cure it. Have to tell you the people of Valleyfield were wonderful and made us all very welcome

robert j garner
04-14-2007, 09:28 AM
Hi Jackie

I will say hi to dad for you next time i speak to him, is mark still
racing i have not been to a circuit race since moving to cornwall
15 years ago still see the odd ski race or offshore.
Just one more quick question was it you that towed billy rixen
with a curcuit cat against all the 21'avengers etc at chasewater
don't now the year must have been around 69 -70.


Cheers Rob.

jackie wilson
04-14-2007, 09:46 AM
Hi Rob, Mark still jumps into the odd offshore race whenever he gets a chance Last time was at key west with my grandson craig . You remember roger hook, well his nephew nigel, racing lucas oils had a pretty good season. The guy who towed billy rixon was alfie bullen, all 300 lbs of him.!!!!!! J.

robert j garner
04-14-2007, 10:02 AM
Hi Jackie

Are mark and craig living in the states,i remember alf bullen
raced ccc in oz .

Rob.

jackie wilson
04-14-2007, 11:18 AM
Mark has lived in florida for the last 8 years yeah, alfie raced omc for a while, and i live in the south of france right on the med.

robert j garner
04-14-2007, 11:47 AM
Wow small world i have a house in florida i checked on here
last week to see if there was any curcuit or drag boats running
when we are out there at the end of april thats when i saw
your name come up. Whats mark doing over there,Must be nice in
the south of france do you still have your helicopter:D

Rob.

jackie wilson
04-14-2007, 03:57 PM
floridas a big place----where you at. look at the apba site ----tells you where everythings at. No haven't played whirlybird for 20 yrs. just too damned expensive. Last time i played was with Barry Sheene. He bought a Huey in ireland. And for the record i didn't actually own one, just rented one on special occasions. J.

robert j garner
04-15-2007, 04:22 AM
Hi Jackie

Thanks for that the apba site is just what i needed i will check it next
time before i book my flights, our house is at haines city 15 miles south
of orlando on 27, you must of been to the kissemee area plenty of times
in the past isn't that where lake x is.

Rob.

jackie wilson
04-17-2007, 02:20 AM
HI ROB, Pruett used to live in Orlando in the early 70's and he would fly me down to lake X every once in a while, He used to have 1 or 2 attempts at landing on the little strip they had , but he usually bounced and farted his way in there. Don't think it's part of the Mercury set up any more, economics and backward thinking management [ probably ] put paid to it all. Great shame ,that's where dreams ,legends, futures, genies and wizards were formed. In fact it's as much part of the keikhaefer legend as Oshberg and Fon-Du-Lac and Mercabo. But then again, i have been a Merc man most of my life, so there could be a wee touch of bias there J.

minto
04-17-2007, 06:04 AM
Hi Jackie,

I've enjoyed reading all your racing stories, Just thought you might like to see this old snap I dug out. Think I've got a few more lurking around of Mark in the Hodges/Merc OE at Fairford during the late 70's.

ROD.

jackie wilson
04-17-2007, 08:33 AM
Hiya Rob, Not many of those pics left i'm afraid. The actual boat with a mock up engine is in the Basildon Motor Boat Museum in Essex. If your really interested in powerboat history, you should take a trip there. Don't know of a better display of old raceboats than that. J

robert j garner
04-17-2007, 11:18 AM
Thats a nice pic of your cosworth at bristol , i know what you
mean about being a merc man dad is the same if you cut him in
half it would say MERCURY like a stick of blackpool rock.:D

rob

minto
04-18-2007, 03:42 PM
Jackie,

As you can see, already visited the museum on a few occasions. I believe they have just celebrated it's 20th anniversary.
Apart from the Hodges on display, do you have any further involvement with the museum?

Rod.

jackie wilson
04-19-2007, 02:18 AM
Rod, Gave the museum a 1920's hydro 'BLUE GOOSE' Found it in a shed in rudgwick w. sussex. went to the 20th anniversary and met one or two of the old gits again. try to make it every 10 yrs . Julie [curator] is a very capable young lady. we email each other occasionally whenever anything exciting occurs----------which aint often these days.

minto
04-20-2007, 09:13 AM
Jackie,

I have'nt been to the museum for a while but hope to return later this year and spend a few hours checking out the library. I remember Julie from my last visit, she made us feel very welcome and nothing was too much trouble.

A friend of mine also donated a vintage hull to the museum, can't recall what it was at the moment but I will find out.

I heard a rumuor that they were moving 'SURFURY' or is she still there?

Glad to hear the anniversary went okay,

Rod.

jackie wilson
04-20-2007, 09:31 AM
Hiya Rod, If They Move Surfury It Will Be For A Very Good Reason, Maybe A Refurbish, Or They Got Another Bewty. Just Call Julie--shes Probably Arranging The Whole Thing

jackie wilson
04-21-2007, 10:08 AM
hey Welch !!!!! you ever gonna pay my team membership, allus wuz a lousy loser. and whatever happened to your little shy matey Butler.? used to be a veritable mine of information, -----when he wasn't playing V.DUB fly boy---- did that contraption actually ever lift off. Or did he go all modern -------like a sopwith camel or a gypsy moth. Still haven't tpld me whether Dick Schnieder is still with us. He used to play props even before Hetzel. Had the coolest piano you ever saw Was a kinda den-daddy to us kids, heh!heh! heh!

jackie wilson
04-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Jackie: Good to hear from you. You will sure give everyone on this site a little boost with your wit and knowledge of all things boat racing.

Hiya Mike, Just now getting the hang of this thing they call a website, thats somewhere inside this thing they call computer when its not called a laptop. If i am ever in doubt then i go to that fellow GOOGLE he manages to sort most things for me, so when welch says 'go to hot singles' i dial into goole and guess what------------------hope i can afford the settlement. Have moved on a piece since then and realize that this is the place boat racers go to either die or raise merry hell, well i kicked that old grim reaper into touch so many times i figure he may not even TRY to get back on the field again. so lets touch on to some real touchy subjects,,,,,,,, what shall we do-------peoples------places------companies... HOW-BOUT OMC AND MERCURY for a kick off lets stir the pot----just while its simmering away----way to go -.